Trimmed Card Question

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Posted By: Josh K.

I just won two willards chocolates (Hornsby and Bancroft) that I believe are trimmed. Both measure about 1/32 short in each direction and do not exhibit straight cuts. I was about to contact the seller (theiceking) when I noticed this buried in his description:

"This group looks like they came from a single sheet and are cut with varying sizes."

Do I have reasonable grounds to demand a refund or a credit?

Here are actual listings:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5236849485&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5234161993&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's something that should have been disclosed in the intial description and buried under the history of Canadian cards. Not sure you have any grounds for a complaint. He did disclose it, even if it was buried.

I am always leery of verbose descriptions as they almost always seem to be used when the seller is trying to bury a significant flaw in all the words, hoping that you will not read the whole thing.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: quan

just went over the description, it wasn't necessarily "buried". not like it was in extra small fonts or buried on line 4 of the paragraph, it was toward the end and easy to pick up. when buying raw cards i always read the description very closely and ask for exact measurements if need be, because i know what i'm getting myself into when buying raw cards. it could save u alot of money, but there's always that raw risk.

josh if u think the cards r trimmed then it'd be nice if the seller would refund u, but he's not obligated to.

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Posted By: Richard

That's a string of bad luck lately, the willards and the grover.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Josh,

The return policy is provided in the auction description:

Seller's return policy -
Item must be returned within: 14 Days
Refund will be given as: Merchandise Credit
Return Policy Details: Returns due to our error will receive a full refund. Other returns are for credit and are subject to a 15% restocking fee.
Graded cards may not be returned without our approval.

I guess you'd have to ask yourself "the" question: When will something like this present itself again and for how much do you think it will sell?

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Posted By: JimB

I think that since the guy disclosed they exact issue you have a problem with, this should probably be chalked up to a lesson learned about reading the descriptions carefully. He may not have had any deceitful intent.
JimB

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Posted By: jay behrens

I call it deceit when the seller decides to bury a serious flaw deep within a description. The fact that it is buried in a history of Canadian cards is proof enough for me that the guy was looking to bury it. It should have beenn in the first paragraph where he says the card grades as such becuase of creases. There is no mention of the card being hand cut, trimmed, etc. This is a VERY important piece of information that needs to be disclosed there, not at the end of a history of Canadian cards.

When seller says that says that a card grades a certain way due to certain factors, I shouldn't have to read further into the description in order find out a card was trimmed or has some other major flaw that he ommitted in the original description.

Jay

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: dennis

look at the picure of the card,it is so obvious they are hand cut/trimmed. and it is also in the discription, if you did not look at the picture . i agree it is "hidden" in the b.s. but come on! is the picture of the card too small also?

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

Okay, so what then is the value of these cards (if we assume they are trimmed) and how rare are they? I would like to know b/c there are a handful of them that i have been watching. Also, i have emailed the seller a few times once to ask dimensions and once to ask him what happens if these won't grade, i have yet to hear from him on either account. If they are rare and trimmed, how do you properly evaluate the price?

Regards,
Black Sox Fan

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I'm Smart Enough To Know, There Are A Lot Of People Who Know More Than I Know

BlackSoxFan.com
email me

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Posted By: identify7

The value of these cards are identified by the bidding results. Josh was not way out in left field here; this was a hard fought battle among knowledgable competitors, imho.

There was no indication by the seller that these were pristine examples offered for sale. One card was described as vg/ex and the other as almost ex (which means vg/ex). If I was the seller who stated that some cutting variance was noted, and a buyer came back to me with expert opinion, such as can be offered by SGC, I would accept the card back for full refund. But if the buyer came back to me with less than expert testimony, I would adhere to the refund terms stated in my auction.

Of course the above represents only my opinion. I am a buyer of one of the iceking's Willard Chocolate cards, which was listed as vg/ex. I have no problem with any potential trimming (my card has notable creasing), and is probably a lesser grade. But it looks ok for my needs.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I won the near Ex card. I didn't notice the trimming note at the bottom message either. Probably wouldn't have influenced my bid much since the card I won is the only card this player appears on. It's not like I could wait for his Goudey or e121 or some other card to appear. My card measures exactly 2" x 3.25" which is what is listed in the SCD big book. Lipset lists the cards as being 2 1/16". It's obviously a vintage trim job since the corners show wear.

I'm bugged that I missed the note at the end too, but I also got a hard to find card for my player set

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Despite what others have said above about how obvious the trim jobs are on these cards, it was apparantly missed by the majority of the people who won these cards from this seller (this is based on private communications and responses to this thread).

That being said, does anyone know just how rare these cards are? If I got a trimmed card at a fair price, that is one thing. I just have a feeling that had the trimming been clearly communicated, the hornsby would have gone for half as much as it did.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I have no doubt the cards would have sold for less, but not a whole lot less, than what they ended up going for. I may put the card in my next submission to SGC just to see what they say.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: identify7

Not everyone considers trimming to be a significant consideration on cards which otherwise would grade vg/ex and below. This is due to the fact that you can lower the grade of these cards without impacting their value much.

For example an attractive low grade Willards Chocolate's Hornsby will retain a high percentage of its resale value, independent of grade, just based on its visual appeal. Therefore, you really can not hurt a vg/ex Hornsby much, by slight trimming. In my humble opinion.

Trimmed high grade cards however, are frequently trimmed to decieve. This occurance is considered distasteful by much of the collecting universe; and the price suffers substantially.

Edited to add: After thinking about it, I imagine that this set has some high priced cards in which trimming even in lower grades can be costly.

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Posted By: Max Weder

As a winner of a number of these cards, I must confess to only one thing: I now realize I am functionally illiterate, as I didn't notice the wording in the description. I can't blame the seller; I read the entire description and simply missed the description, and I should have asked the right questions.

I don't know whether they are trimmed or simply handcut from an original sheet. Some look better than others, but I suspect (in hindsight)none of them would grade.

That said, I was not going to get them graded in any event; the cards are cool as they are, and if I ever do sell or trade them, a prospective purchaser will buy with full knowledge and disclosure from me.

I'll probably bid on a few more if some of my favorite players come up (please stay away from any cards with the letters S, C, H, A, N or G). After all, it's only cardboard, and Canadian cardboard at that.


Max