High end sets converted from PSA to GAI

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Posted By: cmoking

In another thread, Jim Crandell wrote :

"I would represent that collectors with large PSA graded card collections could cross their collections over to GAI for a nominal price. The publicity alone would be worth it for GAI. But with some exceptions(Dmitri for one and one of Marshall's sets) they haven't."


I am starting a new thread so as to keep the other thread on topic.

Jim - Did Marshall Fogel convert a full set from PSA to GAI? If so, what set was it, and do you know how the grades were converted? Meaning, were the grades the same for the average card in the set?

Also, I saw a post in another forum that Marshall Fogel is now working for GAI as a Game Used Bat authenticator. Clearly he has personal ties with GAI, and thus it would make it more likely that he would convert more of his sets.

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Posted By: WP

Jim,
Did GAI evere offer you a blanket crossover "special deal"? I would imagine they would love to have your collection in their holders.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Cmoking,

I believe Marshall converted his 1957 Topps set from PSA to GAI. GAI has even had it on display at shows--perhaps last year's national. I know he is close to Rocchi and Baker but I have no idea if he will convert more.

WP,

Yes. Don't want to discuss details but Mike and team would have set up shop in my basement for a week or more if I would have switched my whole 22,000 card PSA collection to GAI from PSA.

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Posted By: cmoking

wondering if you know any more details about the 1957 set conversion - was it a straight conversion - an 8 for an 8, a 9 for a 9? or did GAI re-grade every card. If so, what was the set average in GAI vs PSA.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Cmoking,

GAI regraded every card--do not know what the difference was. Baker probably graded virtually every card in Marshall's set while he was at PSA so its likely his grades at GAI did not change too much.

Jim

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Posted By: cmoking

the reason I ask is that in general, I have seen GAI cards being overgraded by about a 0.5 grade compared to PSA. But I haven't seen that many - maybe 300 GAI cards in total. So it would be interesting to see what the exact average grades were...maybe my sample size that I saw was not fair to GAI.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

It is interesting isn't it that with the apparent exception of one set, the so-called "big three," Jim C. as he just described, and likely many others chose not to cross their PSA collections over to Global, despite long-term associations with Mike Baker and Steve Rocchi. I would guess, and it's just speculation, that Global expected otherwise when they started out and indeed I was told by certain dealers that some of the above-mentioned people would be crossing their collections or significant parts of them over. It seems like they (the collectors) made the right decision at least from a financial standpoint.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

I agree. I have been watching carefully to see if others would take the plunge but not yet. My catalyst would be if PSA went to half grades--that would get me to think hard about a switch as I would have to submit tons of cards looking for 8.5s under that scenario as 8s would drop in value but 8.5s wuld rise.

Jim

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Jim, based on what I see happening on ebay and auctions, a PSA 8 these days is probably worth more than a Global 8.5 on most if not all cards. I have seen some astonishingly low numbers for Global cards in fact, especially at the high end. Perhaps what I am seeing is not representative, and if so I am sure others will correct me. Also I don't think PSA will ever go to half grades, it would be too disruptive to the millions of cards already in plastic/slabs/tombs whatever word one chooses.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

I hope you are right--that is my nightmare scenario.

I don't follow things quite as closely as you but my impression has been that it was just commons which went at a discount and for star cards it made sense to go for the 8.5s. I guess not today.

One audience that is very loyal is the long time dealers. You look at the displays of many dealers and there are more GAI cards than PSA.

I am in the funny position of being close friends with mgt of GAI and SGC and not on speaking terms with the head of PSA yet having all my cards(99.9%) in PSA holders.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I believe that Marshall's conversion of his 1957 set took place 2-3 years ago. I have not heard of any significant cross-overs of sets since then - although I do understand that GAI seems to be doing well volume-wise.

~ms

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Posted By: cmoking

Jim wrote : "One audience that is very loyal is the long time dealers. You look at the displays of many dealers and there are more GAI cards than PSA."

I have a theory for this. The theory is that dealers sell their PSA cards, and can't sell their GAI cards - because they price them similarly. Blind collectors who only look at the holder buy the PSA card due to the holders. Collectors who scrutinize the cards look at them carefully and generally pass on the GAI cards at the price the dealers are asking (close to similar PSA prices) because the card doesn't hold up in quality for the grade.

Well, that's my theory...and that's also what happened for me when I went to the National. I did buy two cards in GAI 7 holders, but I scrutinized them carefully and got a price lower than it would have been if they were in PSA 7 holders. Unfortunately for me, upon a closer look in my home under more powerful light, I regretted my purchases. To say the least, I have not been happy with my cards in GAI holders. Here's a GAI 6 that doesn't belong in a EX-MT holder. Don't know if it is clear in the scan, but the bottom left corner area is ugly.



I suspect if you cracked your PSA 8 cards and submitted them to GAI, a good portion of them would come back GAI 8.5, and some GAI 9. Very few would be 7.5 or 7.

Again, this is based on my limited experience of seeing about 300 cards in GAI holders. I'd like to see more or hear others opinions.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I agree that GAI cards a generally at least 1/2 Grade higher than PSA and often a grade higher than SGC. I have never had a card graded by GAI, but have purchased many cards in their holders that I needed. I think there is little risk of geting lower grades if you cross over to GAI, but there is significant risk that once in the GAI holders the cards will be damaged - certainly with thin vintage cards maybe not so much with thicker 50's cards. Fully half of the vintage cards that I have purchased in GAI holders are loose in the holder and could be easily damaged. PSA holders that fit issues such as T206 are ok, but the condoms in the e-cards also can cause damage. PSA will also use the condom for cards that they do have holders for when they are out of those holders and that is just wrong. I get all of the GAI cards out of their holders and into SGC or PSA depending on issue. I am in the midst of crossing my PSA e-card condom holders to SGC, but that is going to be a long process. Another lessen that I have learned in purchasing cards that are in GAI holders is that if a back scan is not included be carefull as, they are much more tolerant of back damage than PSA or SGC.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The lone PSA card in my collection, that will never get cracked out because I seriously doubt SGC will give it a 70



Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: cmoking

the point is that a higher percentage of GAI cards are not worth the grade. sure, there are cards not worthy in their PSA graded holders, but its a smaller percentage than GAI cards. People aren't that stupid, the relative pricing shows up sooner or later. Otherwise, the smart guys would buy GAI cards cheap, crack them, submit it to PSA and make money. That ain't happening. Dealers are typically smart with that type of stuff (otherwise they'd have a tough time staying in business), but the fact they have GAI cards in GAI holders mean they don't think its a wise move.

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Posted By: DJ

This might sound like a stupid question or a question that many are thinking about asking...but...if I had 22,000 (Or any large number) PSA graded cards...why would anyone want to switch over to another grading company?

Doesn't that simply seem like such a waste of money, time, energy, a good weekend afternoon etc.?

If you planned to sell, I understand having the cards graded (that's the vogue thing to do), but last I knew, PSA was still "boss" and it would be like volunteering to go from the Red Sox to the Mariners.

Yes, I'm old school and I'm not fond of grading but understand it's importance in the hobby today.

DJ

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Half-grades, DJ.

The owner wants all of his 8's upgraded to 8.5's.

Unfortunately, many people assume that GAI would "promise" to do this for the owner if he switched to them.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

If value isn't important as you have suggested, why not crack it out even if it would mean a lower (and more accurate) grade?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

The reasons to switch would be related to the value of the cards.

If PSA went to a half grade as has been often rumored, this would make their 8s worth less but their 8.5s worth more. Thus it would compel collectors with a large number of 8s to submit them for regrading.

If this decision was made why not open up the decision to having them regraded by another company....particularly one with a better reputation or an equal reputation who would do it for a nominal cost.

Jim

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've never said value isn't important except inregards to general posting on this board. People here genereally don't care how much a collection is worth. More interest in the content. They also love to hear about people getting a great deal ala the Red Cross Cobb. Ask anyone here, I am one of the best people at sniffing out good values. I ahve to becaue I make less in year than many board members make in a month.

My collection is always in flux. I prefer very low grade cards, but I am not about pass up a good deal when I see one on a higher grade cards. Eventually, I'll find a lower grade card of Vosmik that I like and I will sell off that card to finance the purchase of other cards. If I crack it out, I've cost myself money. Even though I may detest PSA and know that the Vosmik is vastly overgraded, I also know that there enough PSA lemmings out there that will pay good money for the slab because it says 6 even though the card inside doesn't warrant it.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: DJ

Am I wrong here or do PSA8's sell for about as much as a GAI8.5?

What would happen if a new company came out with 3/4ths!

DJ

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

From my admittedly limited perspective, PSA 8s sell for MORE than GAI 8.5s these days. In most issues anyhow.