PSA Bashing getting old.

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Posted By: Anson

I like SGC as much as anyone but why does every thread have to turn into PSA bashing. I've seen some bad mistakes and inconsistencies with PSA. However, I have seen them with RECENT SCG submissions and GAI too.

I haven't been on the board that long and it's already getting irritating. I don't think anybody's mind is going to change reading these over and over.

end rant

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Posted By: jay behrens

THen show us these gaffs by SGC. We are all more than willing to take SGC and GAI to task for mistakes too. Just remember, GAI and SGC tend to get more slack because they actually care. PSA has proven they don't.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: will watson

????

not to mention its probably trimmed

bad SGC, haha

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Posted By: jay behrens

Been there, done that. How about something new. And it was just posted a few days ago in another thread. Says a lot about SGC if all you can do rehash a post from a recent thread.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: will watson

why don't you defend this glaring error instead of making excuses? i don't think anyone made any decent excuses the first time it was posted, either.

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Posted By: John

The only thing I wish is that collectors still just pissed and moaned about cards and other dealers, instead of the plastic holders the cards are put in.

I also long for the days when a plastic holder got scratched up from looking at a card I would just put the card in a brand new holder. Now it costs $5. Which use to be the price of one of those fancy screw down jobs (the brick). You could make 1000 PSA cases from one of those monsters. If you told me when I was 12 I had to buy one of those every time a holder gets scratched in the future I probably would have quit collecting.

I was so proud the day I went in and bought “the brick” I finally had a card worthy of the beast it self. Everyone knew only the best cards got the brick!

I also think its amazing how every card that shows up no matter what card, who from or when it was made is trimmed. Or how about assuming that because a collector who has been around long before this grading company schtick hit. That because he hasn’t spent thousands of dollars with grading companies on his cards that they are bogus and should not be taken seriously.

Some folks said that selling you know what in you know where would be the downfall of the hobby, I think were looking at the plastic death nail to the hobby everyday.

Feel free to waste your time typing an explanation to me how grading companies have made the hobby so much better for me.


“You’re semi friendly Baseball Card Curmudgeon”

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Posted By: barrysloate

As I've said before grading cards is a tedious and repetitive process, not a job any of us would envy (think of doing this eight hours a day, five days a week, indefinitely). It would be impossible not to make mistakes. Overall, all three companies do pretty darn well but I think all the graders are overworked and bleary eyed so let's cut them some slack.
John, maybe I'm oversensitive, but isn't that little icon you added to your last post a tad anti-semitic? Not looking to start a war, but it looks like two Jewish merchants bickering over a deal.

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Posted By: dan mckee

PSA gets bashed for their treatment of customers and how they handle their mistakes. Yes all 3 grading companies make mistakes but SGC's customer service is so far above PSA that it isn't even funny! Look at the old SGC labeled card that Dave bought back for $2500 and didn't have to. PSA took my wrongly slabbed T205 and just corrected their label, wouldn't refund me for paying for the rare variation slab with a common card holdered. Before you jump, there was no picture on the ebay auction.

Another thing, after my court case, Joe Orlando called me and congratulated me. Then he said no hard feelings and to please understand that PSA deals with alot of crazies. He then said he saw in court that I was very professional and not one of these nuts. I said thanks Joe, that's great, but I was very professional in small claims when I won as well, so why did you have to appeal and cost me $1800 and can't recoup?????????????

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Posted By: Kieran John

I dont like how the hobby has evolved into a feeding frenzy for the 3 graders. Graded cards used to be just for the serious investor looking to dump the cards down the road for a profit and for that grading is understandable. But now it seems as though even a collector (like myself) who is in this just for the pure enjoyment has to go down the road of buying graded cards. Call me crazy but when i look at my t206 set I am trying to build I dont want some cards graded and some not...

Anyway from my experiance all 3 grading services have made mistakes in one form or another. I do agree that PSA has bad Customer Service but that wont prevent me from buying a card graded by them.



"I have had balls thrown at me my whole life. When I turned 30 I started to really hate balls - I didnt like the smell, feel or taste!"

Yogi Berra - 1975

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Posted By: dan mckee

John, don't get me wrong, I buy PSA cards too. You should see the amount of broken PSA slabs I have in my "slab coffin" I buy them, and pop them! oops! no pun intended, I pop the pop report! Anyway, I actually used them a month ago, I had my T206 Plank slabbed "authentic" by them since it has been hand cut from a sheet. Dan.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You used PSA...I am appalled.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Will -

Please take a look at Scott E's latest post regarding that SGC card. This is a big contrast to psa in my opinion.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Will, there is no need to defend the SGC card you reposted. Another thread explains what was done about it and THIS is what sets SGC apart from PSA.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Barry, mistakes will always occur. But depending on employees to grade cards without subsequent checking or some system of quality control is a poor business practice. Reputation is paramount to any business. For every submission, the customer deserves what he (or she) pays for - a profession opinion as to the condition of a card and to award it an appropriate grade.

I've collected evidence of many the more significant inaccurate work of the pro graders.



If Billy Martin was still around he just may be getting a call from George.

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Posted By: John

Barry;

No battle from me, I have used the GIF before some people even said they liked it.

I never really put that much thought into the GIF before Barry. I guess the animated individuals could be of a number of ethnic backgrounds if one would really want to break the GIF down, but I just wont use it anymore.

My apologies Barry if I have offended you or anyone else for that matter. I certainly don’t want to be labeled the forum Anti-Semite or even have it implied. This place is rapidly becoming less fun and a bit too serious.

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Posted By: leon

As a Jewish person I thought was Barry said was pretty funny. I think I was the one pleading for a better deal and Scott B. (who's not Jewish) was the guy saying "no". I think that stereotype is about 3/4 true too . I am quite sure Barry didn't mean anything by it, however I do agree with you about the seriousness of our "hobby". I just had a phone chat with one of the hobby experts and spoke about that very subject.....TO stay on topic about PSA bashing...as I have stated before, it's my opinion, that this board is indicative of what folks really think about issues. We (and grading companies, auction houses, etc...) all make our beds we have to lie in.....regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I wasn't really personally offended by the icon- a friend of mine had a huge collection of anti-semitic postcards, many made in Germany, and we are both Jewish- but it struck me that somebody could be offended by it. Look at it closely- no question what it's all about. And since religion is a no-no on the board, that's it- I'm done.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Back on topic- I agree with Jerry Spillman that the grading services shouldn't be commended for making mistakes even if it is repetitive work, and there most certainly should be better quality control. But I had this thought- and I wonder if anyone who knows more about this could corroborate it- that most graders don't like the work they are doing and don't last at the job very long. I bet there is quite a bit of turnover at each company. You need to be young and have good eyesight. If I graded cards all day, my eyes would be so tired I'd have trouble making it to five o'clock closing time. Anyone know if this is true?

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Posted By: Steve Katz

The two guys haggling icon didn't offend me. Let's face it - Jewish people are good businesspeople and if the icon represents that then so be it. Jewish people had to be good businesspeople and entrepreneurs over the ages - because of anti-semitism others would not hire them as employees. So Jews became businesspeople and their own individual entrepreneurs such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. A stereotype?...no those are just the facts. And last time I checked there were also lots of good Christian and Muslim businesspeople. And them Chinese and Japanese ain't doing badly either - LOL

One comment about PSA and grading companies. Those who bash card grading really don't understand what card collecting was like before the advent of grading, or maybe they just don't remember - well, it was in shambles. Counterfeits galore! Grading has made card collecting so much better and more enjoyable.

Steve Katz

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Posted By: dan mckee

Steve, you collected before grading and you approve of the grading???? WOW! You are the first one I have heard of that has been around awhile. There were lots of doctored reprints floating around? Yes, but I know what I collect and I trust me way more than any grader out there. And..... there are reprints in graded slabs. Dan.

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Posted By: JimB

I would like to register one more voice who is tired of PSA bashing. I have submitted cards to all three services and find their evaluation of grades to generally be consistent - at least with the cards I have submitted. I too am impressed with SGC's customer service and had a very positive experience with Dave Foreman at a show in Chicago last summer. I personally would buy a card graded by any of the three services.

It is funny because I have sold some PSA graded cards on the BST list here and some of the very people who bash PSA have bought cards graded by them sight unseen, without asking to see a scan - simply by the grade.
JimB

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Posted By: dan mckee

Really Jim? You have people buying cards w/o scans? And most on this board preach to buy the card and not the label/holder. And this is from any grading service, not just PSA. Maybe since they were purchased through the board that they felt safer. All of the collectors I know buy the card and not the label/holder. My Best, Dan.

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Posted By: steve k

<<< Steve, you collected before grading and you approve of the grading???? WOW! You are the first one I have heard of that has been around awhile. There were lots of doctored reprints floating around? Yes, but I know what I collect and I trust me way more than any grader out there. And..... there are reprints in graded slabs. Dan. >>>

Dan - "Grading" (Slabbing) as you of course know, as well as grading also includes authentication and detection of alterations. It wasn't just about a counterfeit card problem before grading, it was also about altered cards which was a rampant problem. Even for an experienced card collector such as myself, in a card shop or at a card show an alteration could be missed or undetected. Grading certainly has room for improvement, but anyone who believes that card collecting hasn't gotten better and more enjoyable since the advent of grading, simply isn't being realistic.

BTW Dan, I remember in one of Warshawlaw's posts awhile back regarding your suit with PSA, that at one point you were willing to settle for an equivalent dollar amount in PSA grading fees. PSA rejected your offer. But the fact of your offer tells me that you must feel that grading has value and that you also did "approve of the grading." Perhaps you don't approve anymore but you would be in the minority of card collectors - which is fine.

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Posted By: Alan

I agree with Barry. Being Jewish too, I wasn't personally offended by the icon - but somebody could be offended by it. Plus, let's not get into a religion discussion on this board.

Alan
Jewish sports collector/archivist

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Posted By: dan mckee

Yes Steve, that was an offer, when Adam first presented it to me, I wanted nothing to do with it. But then he told me I could sell the submissions, well, that was as good as getting cash and at that point, I would have taken it. I have cards graded now, my 3rd submission should be back from SGC shortly. All for sale naturally, since there are many people who prefer to buy graded and it does help with selling on the internet. My keepers: I have complete sets: many T issues, all Goudey, all playball, all bowman, all topps (stopped in 1990). How many of my personal cards are graded? 2, T206 Plank PSA Authentic, 1952 topps Mantle SGC 2. I am not a big fan of grading, though it does have some pros as you have stated. I think Barry said it perfectly in another thread, they should just slab them all authentic with no numbers. My Best, Dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I forgot to mention, I am sure glad Joe turned down the submission offer, it was much easier to cash that 1 check!

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Posted By: dan mckee

"anyone who believes that card collecting hasn't gotten better and more enjoyable since the advent of grading, simply isn't being realistic."



Sorry Steve, I must completely disagree with this statement. Personally, I think collecting is less enjoyable now than ever in my life! But I would be curious how the rest of the board feels about this. I have been alone before. Dan.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm with Dan on this one. It may be safer to buy cards with the advent of third-party grading, but it is certainly less fun. And with key vintage cards typically selling in the four-figure and five-figure range, a lot of collectors will be forced to drop out and it will become a leisure activity of the rich only. That's where it is heading, and you can thank slabbed cards for leading the hobby in that direction. Good for those who have, bad for those who are trying to buy and always get outbid by the same people.

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Posted By: Alan

I agree with Dan & Barry. The hobby isn't as fun as it was in the old days to me either. In the late 1980's (before grading), I noticed the price difference between near mint & excellent was widening. And, I said then it's becoming like coins. I don't really care for grading, but it does help the new collector get an authenic card.

Who knows what will happen ? I remember when the hobby collapsed - A 1952 Topps Mantle was down to $600 in a live auction.

Alan

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Posted By: steve k

Well, "enjoyment" is in the mind of the beholder. Slabbing making it safer to buy cards? - Yes...to me that adds to the enjoyment. As for key cards becoming a leisure activity for the rich? - well, ALL forms of collecting virtually anything have their upper tiers whereby only the rich can afford certain items. I couldn't afford a t206 Wagner 25 years ago and I still can't afford one - LOL. Slabbing has nothing to do with that. There is no reason, other than perception, that someone can't "enjoy" a nice t206 VG-EX type card versus feeling that they can't "enjoy" collecting because they can't afford to buy a t206 slabbed in Near Mint condition. And anybody who says that rising dollar values of their cards, which as was stated slabbed cards have contributed to this,...if anybody says that this doesn't add to their enjoyment of collecting, I don't think they would pass the test if they were hooked up to a lie detector machine.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Slabbing unquestionably has a lot to do with these extravagant prices. I can tell you first hand dealing with many of the high end buyers that they wouldn't even be in the hobby without the advent of professionally graded cards. I have no problem with those who like grading; there are aspects of it I like myself. But make no mistake it is one of the biggest if not the biggest factor in price escalation.

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Posted By: scott

as all of you are veterans in the hobby,i'm a recycled newbie as i collected for about 20 years then sold off everything in the late 80's early 90's.

back then i bought t cards,goudeys etc.,never even considering alterations,forgeries etc.prices were reasonable and grading was in its beginnings.

now i'm back into collecting,which i enjoy,but to say one has to be cautious is an understatement. i educate myself the best i can through the internet, including this forum but i'm at a disadvantage is that even though i,ve made a few nice purchases ,the fact of the matter is the only way to truly know the cards ,and spot skillful alterations is to actually handle them....alot of them.

being on a budget this will never happen so i have to unfortunately rely ,to some degree on grading companies and individuals on the board who i've purchased from (graded).

unlike 20 years ago,and much like any counterfeiting,our knowledge and technology ,and the big bucks at stake has made it hard to stay ahead of the curve.i'm sure some have passed by the top experts unknowingly and otherwise.

as a newbie,as much as i hate to admit it but i'm just going to buy graded.if i pay a couple hundred $ for a rawcard,i don't want to think at the back of my mind what
if..

and i know that a slabbed card may be altered ,and that the person grading may have less experience then me,may have a hangover,or whatever but this is something i just have to live with.



a newbie's rambling thoughts,
scott

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I did suggest the idea to Dan as a way of settling the PSA case, since Dan could sell off the grades to people who cared and/or have cards he was selling to customers who wanted them graded done for no cost. Seemed like an attractive offer for all since the cost to PSA would effectively be much less than the grade value. Part of a lawyer's job is to see if there is a solution the parties can live with that avoids a trial.

I bash PSA, deservedly IMHO, but I will buy PSA graded cards. If they mean anything to me and I want them for my personal collection, I usually cross them over to SGC because their presentation is so much better.

I like grading for a variety of reasons: (1) the cards sure look nice in some of the professionally made little frames, (2) the frames do protect the cards pretty well against casual errors (I still kick myself for accidentally creasing my 1969-70 Elvin Hayes rookie card while "playing" with it; never would have done that in a slab), (3) I believe that if you have slabbed cards and they are lost, stolen, etc., it will be a lot easier to present an insurance claim on them and spank an insurer in court if the claim is denied, (4) the move to graded cards presented a needed financial boon to a sagging business in the late 1990s, (5) it is easier to buy and sell via mail order if the cards are slabbed, and (6) slabs are a "portable" means to authenticate cards and especially autographed cards that many buyers trust and accept without debate.

I dislike grading for a variety of reasons: (1) stupid prices based on distinctions that I, with 30 years of collecting, simply do not see (e.g., 9-10), (2) blind obedience to grading services without any consideration of one's own judgment and expertise or that of the seller (e.g., if the slabber says it is bad, it is bad), (3) inconsistency and favoritism, (4) escalated prices based on population figures that are utterly unreliable, (5) silly competitions between under-endowed males for the "best" sets spurring on ridiculous price wars, (6) inability to sell a high end, rare card at full market without a slab, (7) the flip side of authentication: blind acceptance of the slab no matter what your eyes tell you about what is in it.

Merely saying "good" or "bad" on the issue of grading is as flawed as saying "good" or "bad" to a question of public policy. Simplistic answers are for simpletons, or politicians trying to appeal to simpletons. Grading has many good aspects and many bad ones. Whether you feel it is overall a benefit for collectors or overall a detriment in large part depends on your idiosyncratic experiences as a collector. Buy a few altered cards or have a large number of frustrating mail order disappointments (as I did) and you probably like grading. Try to sell your raw collection or try to complete a tough or high demand set that now costs an arm and leg because of registry stuff and you probably don't care for it.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Grading is bad. I am a simpleton.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam said it well, covering all bases, especially #5 in dislikes. I think that may be the gist of it. But Dan said it funnier. Final verdict: a draw.

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Posted By: Bob Rousseau

I've been out of the mix for a couple of years (I veered off to buying vintage photos- including some snapshots of some baseball greats), and recently started lurking again.

I remember a few years ago that Sports Collectors Digest's grading services started off with generally high approval. I got some of the T206's from the "Florida find" a few years back, and they were graded by SCD. Did they discontinue their service? I've got a 5.5 T206 Pattee horizontal as graded by SCD (Julie's scan of hers made me take another look at mine) and I'm wondering how that would "translate" to SGC or PSA.

I'm also starting to feel like I want to get alot of other things I have slabbed. It seems to me that people used to feel SGC was best for pre Topps and PSA was better for Topps and later, but the worldview (or boardview) may have shifted about that.

Cheers all.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

In addition to being accurate and educational, bashing PSA is good, clean fun Call it the mens equivalent of bagging on a woman's hairstyle.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I pretty much have to agree with most of Adam's points. I also generally think cards look great in sgc slabs. While a nice NM or better card will look good no matter how it is presented, SGC's slabs do wonders in my eyes for lower conditioned cards.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Adam, as soon as SGC starts grading "authentic" for hand cut cards, the Plank will be crossed over. I am not a PSA Cult member yet, but leaning!

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Posted By: cmoking

I wouldn't even have thought about spending 4 digits or more for a card unless it is graded. I'm not an expert on fakes, authenticity. How could I possibly know a 33 Goudey Ruth that I am buying is real or fake? Without knowing someone knowledgable, like PSA/SGC/GAI has authenticated the card, I would always wonder. I am sure there are many others like me who simply wouldn't be comfortable. So that's a good side to grading. You get new collecctors like people like me. However, the bad side is that, people like me will drive up prices for high graded PSA cards. So what would you want? Much fewer people interested in the hobby, and much lower prices? Or more people interested and higher prices? I'm sure some will say the former, while others will say the latter.

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Posted By: leon

Hold what ya got (very inside joke).....regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

I would prefer the only people collecting were the people who took the time to know what they are buying. And no grading. If that 19 year old at PSA knows more than you about pre-war cards, then invest in Topps and Bowman.