Forgeries bought from board expert

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

It is always tough going against the opinions of experts in the hobby. For many reasons, you might sit on an item for months or years and never examine it closely, assuming the expert would have noticed any aberrations, especially if it's an issue that you are unfamiliar with. Then you find out that the item has "problems" or is a forgery. What do you do? With auction houses it is tough, since they have already paid consignors. I wonder how many of you are proudly holding forgeries in your vaults?

I'm currently holding two forgeries I bought from a board member who is an expert on rare issues such as this. The fact that they are forgeries was pointed out to me (for one of them) when I attempted to consign it. When I got it back the assessment made sense, especially since I had misgivings when I first received them, and when I looked closely at the other item, it became evident that it was the same type of forgery - very high quality, but the evidence was clear once it was pointed out to me. I noticed one of the problems when I first received the items, but thought "must be my imagination - no way in hell this guy would sell me a forgery." His expertise was so unquestionable that I would have been embarrassed to ask him about my concerns. Well, they ARE forgeries. This lesson didn't cost me too much, but it demonstrates the danger of buying issues that you aren't familiar with, even if it's from someone you trust completely.

No response to my emails after more than a month. Some hobby we have here.

No, I'm not dropping a name - you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Scott, check this out: A friend of mine urchased an ASA card from Alan Hager YEARS ago. It is trimmed. He noticed Alan selling on ebay as ahcollectibles. He wrote him nicely and explained the situation. After all of those years, Alan bought the card back! The buyer wasn't expecting this, it was best case scenerio. Kudos to Alan for this, he didn't have to do it. Dan.

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Posted By: leon

Henry Moses took a return from me after a long time. This was about 5 years ago. I will never forget his generosity. In my mind HE is the man....regards

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Can we at least find out what cards were forged??

I always want to know when certain counterfeit cards are floating around out there.

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Posted By: leon

was a trimmed Mayo and Henry took it back.....and didn't have to....regards

edited for grammar

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Posted By: John

I have just one fake, I haven’t handled a ton of these so I couldn’t tell you if it was a good one or not. Dan your dad gave it to me when I was a kid; my folks and I were buying some cards for my birthday at his house. He gave it to me and said its fake and made me promise never to give it away or sell it. Well 17yrs later and I still have it.

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Posted By: identify7

Just like the Lipsett thread, but a proven fake rather than a possible trim. Id say give the expert a chance to make it right - it will be embarassing for the both of you -

Edited to remove controversial personal statement.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I think the problem here is the seller isnt returning scott's emails.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I was venting and should have said more, or nothing. These were real photo post-cards, not baseball cards per se, and they were probably printed in the '70s (I'm told).

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

it's a totally different situation - for one thing, a forgery is not a real card (or whatever), while a trimmed card IS a real card. The problem here is not disputed policy, not unfriendly communication, but rather zippo communication.

"Trust", which was an issue with Andrew's purchase, might also be an issue with me, but that's hard to determine at this point since the seller has fallen off the face of the earth.

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Posted By: scott

as a newbie to the hobby..as much as i hate buying graded material...it seems the way to go.not that grading services don't have their flaws.
scott

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The funny thing about fakes is, once you know what they are and say what they are, they're no longer fakes. At least to you.

In the genre of authenticity and authentication, one thing you come to learn is that a work or art or collectable is what it is. It's not the painting's fault that human beings misidentify it.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

The more dollars involved the higher the rate of crime--it's always a shame but a damn shame when it hits a hobby.

I have fakes including a E135 W. Johnson, R333 Vosmik, a 33 Goudey Ruth, and a 33 US caramel Ruth. I got money back on all but one. I can also say I've never purchased a fake in person.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Holy cow John! That is where that fake went! I was hoping to sell that as real! Damn Dad!!!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

These forgeries cost a lot more than their value as art objects, but not enough to break me.

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Posted By: RobertS

Scott--

What made the auctioneer suspect they were no good? The stamp box markings, the paper? Also, what were the subjects?

Actually, if you could post a picture that would certainly be helpful, because there probably are other similar fakes floating around.

For instance, last year brought with it many instances of fake Yankee Stadium/Babe Ruth postcards on eBay and at postcard shows that even duped some dealers.

Here's an example of the fake Yankee Stadium cards, with Ruth. No such cards exist with Ruth -- the originals just feature the stadium in the inset. More importantly, the fakes are all made on photocopiers or laser printers and have a different publisher: "Blair Cedar & Novelty Works."

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I know it would help if I posted images - problem is that would give away the seller, and I'm not interested in doing that. I already know they are forgeries, from the '70s, and I've never seen them before - I think everyone's safe.

I'll discuss with you offline.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

After all the bashing Scott Forrest gave me over the forged E95 Cobb that escaped me when I first started collecting caramels a few years back (while putting together an E95 set), to find out that not one, but TWO forgeries escaped Forrest's "Expert Eye" is simply icing on my cake! At least with the Cobb that escaped me, I never really looked at it (or took it out of the four or five top loaders it was in that were taped together for shipping purposes when I received it - in fact, I even shipped it that way myself). So, it was my fault for not examining the card clearly where I could tell if it was real or not (valuable lesson learned and taken to heart by me).

So, I guess this will be the end of the Hell that Mr. Forrest has given me for quite some time now. Or, it would be a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black if he doesn't!

Just goes to show that none of us are perfect. However, hopefully, we can all learn from past mistakes - I know I sure did!

A ton has been lifted off my shoulders now and that black cloud that was once above my head now has a silver lining!

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Posted By: BCD

You need VAM dollars and all is well in the south!



(McKee loves these cards~)

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

no return emails, he would be exposed. you'd here a stuttering mother hubbard then, haa???

good for the goose

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Posted By: Anson

But, you have to ask yourself, are they REAL VAM dollars?

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Elkins, I'm not going to waste my time returning to useless debate with you after months of peace. If you want to renew a fight, do it with yourself.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Still awaiting your reply.

As for Forrest - I am definitely NOT trying to rehash anything - simply thought it amusing that two forgeries would escape his expert eye after what I had to go through from him over one. Goes to show The Bible has an adage for everything BCD - reminds me of the "Let he who is without sin be the first to cast a stone" verse.

Again, I just find this very ironic and hilarious Forrest and am not trying to start any fights. I am too happy to fight actually! I am almost as happy as the day my Croft's Cocoa Cobb arrived at my home from Pete! Maybe this thread is a sign for me to buy a few Powerball Lottery tickets??????

E-mail me when you get a chance BCD and we will wheel and deal some more.

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Posted By: Texas Ted

Robert S. There was no email with your post. Please email me for a question about postcards.



Texas Ted
One more in a series of attempts at a second childhood.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

It would probably be a good idea to mention some of the characteristics common to RPPC forgeries. You're the expert on RPPC's, so I'll defer to you for the details, but certainly things to consider are thickness, lack of aging (whiteness of the back), photo quality (although this wasn't an issue with mine), and the stamped back (as opposed to printing). The stamped back is what I had the most problem with, so I've included images here of a real one and the forgery. Robert, please point out what to look for.

The key thing is that if it "just doesn't feel right", it probably isn't.

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Posted By: RobertS

Scott--

It's just like cards -- if it doesn't feel right, it isn't. Thickness is a dead give away, as is printing that appears newly stamped on the back not printed.

If a card is too thin and seems like it wouldn't make it through the mail, it probably is a fake. These things were made to be tough enough to withstand the US Postal Service! (Some were thick, some were thin, but none were paper-like thickness.)

Similarly, if the printing seems to be recently stamped on the back, not professionally printed, it might be a recent fake. Not always the case, but sometimes. Of course, laser printing is also a giveaway (if the paper is "aged" but the printing is shiny when reviewed on an angle) -- just like the fake Kendig baseball candy cards floating around a few years ago or the Yankee Stadium/Ruth postcard in this thread.

Here are the cheat sheets I use for stamp box and stamp backs:

Stamp Boxes (e.g. AZO, Cyko):
http://www.playle.com/realphoto/photoa.htm

Stamp Backs:
http://www.playle.com/realphoto/backa.htm

And I'm sure David Rudd could probably add to this by stressing what to look for under microscope.