Collecting Old Judge

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Posted By: Geoff Litwack

As I start wrap up the sets I've been working on recently, I've been thinking about what I should attempt next. Spurred on by the beautiful examples in the new Mile High auction, I'm considering taking on N172, which would be my first entry into the world of 19th century baseball. I fully understand the enormity of the undertaking, which has made sane men mad, and so I wanted to ask the group: how have you approached Old Judge? Have you settled on a subset (a favorite team, HOFs, spotted ties, mascots), or the whole thing but only a single pose of any given player, or what? New poses show up, but do new players turn up? What's the deal with the PCL cards? Do you feel like you've had to overpay for cards you want?

I've often heard it said that it's impossible to complete a set, which I believe, but who are the most prominent collectors and what are their attempts like?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I would get Lipset's book on Old Judges (OJ's) and read up on them first. Do your homework or your learning could be pretty expensive. Many OJ collectors do not want to be known or be recognized. They range from the CEO's, Lawyers, E-net Millionaires, Long term collectors, Crooks using other people's money, and the guy next door. I have found it to be pretty difficult learning about them from advanced collectors as there are many RARE issues that are not in the book or known about. I personally like Brownie Champs, Spotted Ties, Jewish players, HOFer's and players that were featured on the kalamazoo Bat cards.
A link to my collection is right here to check out a variety of cards. I wish more people would show their collection to educate and motivate new collectors. Check it out and drop me a line sometime.. JC

http://www.zmotive.com/gallery/jccards

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

For me, the PICTURE is the primary thing; I don't think about resale value, I don't get them graded. If the picture is clear, sharp and has good contrast, I don't care if the corners are somewhat rounded, and the back isn't perfect.

I collect HOFers and my favorite players (Hoy and Caruthers). Keeps me broke and busy. I do not, nor will I ever, have the finances to complete the set, so I don't think much about it.

Look in the Lipset and Sloate auctions, and Smollin as well. Mastro says he's going to continue the Collector's Auctions, so watch them, too. Talk to Jay Miller and Terry Knouse. Jay will have duplicates ans high prices, Terry wil have high prices, but will allow time paymenyts (Jay once held a card for me for three months, actually!)

If you are used to buying more than one card at a time, you may have to forget that.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Since mere mortals (at least those with limited financial means) don't have a real shot at completing the N172 set, my tack has been to collect the cards of some of my favorite players of that era.

David Nemec's books (The Beer and Whisky League and The Great Encyclopedia of 19th Century Major League Baseball) have some wonderful stories about the stars, semi-stars and just plain characters that played major league baseball back then. Not unlike when I was a kid or the kids of today, you pick out the players who move you for one reason or another and then try to get a card of them.

For me, it almost makes it like I was there watching them in person. Real picture baseball cards are just fantastic that way.

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Posted By: Jason

I say that because nobody even knows how many cards belong to this set. So many poses and one of a kinds like the California league players that going about with the intention of completing the set is pointless. I agree with Julie that picture is the key. Why buy a faded or pinkish card in SGC 60 when you can get one that looks much nicer in SGC 30.

I was looking at a Walter Johnson I have in PSA 3 tonight. I looks as good as a 10 from two feet away... =)

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Best thing to do is learn about the cards before you collect them and what prices you should pay.You wont learn everything in a short amount of time but youll know who the common players are and what price to pick them up at and the hall of famers.Depending on what you want to spend youll have an idea then of what to collect.

Ive collected a certain team,a certain player and just cool poses.Id like to get one card of each player within reason and as far my preference,I love old judge cards but dont have any interest in portrait cards but most people do

Kevin's idea is a good one,collecting certain players who are of interest to you but theres plenty of people who collect one team[Im a Pirates fan so i collected all the 1887 Pirates players] one subset,or just try for every player.

One bit of advice,it is tough to get inside info from the people who know because they could be giving away which players are tougher and therefor take away a chance they have of making a good deal.Some poses/variations of common players can be extremely difficult

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Posted By: Richard Masson

My advice would be to start by purchasing larger lots. This would allow you to learn about all the various poses, common flaws in appearance and grading, dates of issue, and reduce your price per card.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

There are many ways to collect OJs, nothing new there. I suspect collecting HOFers is the most common with nice examples (VG/EX front & back) ranging from $1000 - $2000 for a majority of the HOFers (~20) with the rarest and most popular (~7) easily twice that if you are not after a particular pose (particular poses can run 5 even 6 figures depending who's interested). So one could easily spend over $50,000 for a HOFer set (27 member set) even if you shop carefully.

There have been a couple newcomers that are trying to tackle one copy of each player. Because many of the PCL cards are unique, there really is no hope of completing a set in this fashion. Alan Sasson is fairly new to this board and has a nice start as can be seen on SGCs website. His collection is very similar but a little bigger than Trevor Hocking's old collection that he sold-off not so long ago (was more a business opportunity than a collection). Others on the Board such as Jim Clarke have hinted they are going to go after a copy of each player but not sure if they have embarked on that journey yet.

As you likely know, Jay Miller is the resident OJ expert. His ambition takes him well beyond one copy of each player. The collection he has amassed over the last ~20 years is staggering. I'll let him give details if he so wishes.

There are also several substantial collections out there with no contact to this board.

Taking a couple steps back to some of the more affordable options would include the team sets. Even here you have decisions to make such as sticking to a particular year, one pose of each player vs all, etc. I've noticed the following team collectors on this forum (off the top of my head):

Baltimores: Tom Lawrie (nearly "complete") & David Seaborn
Bostons: James Verrill
Detroits: Myself (Joe Gonsowski) & a couple others I've meet but not very active
Milwaukees: John Effenheim
Pirates: John/Z28 (nearly "complete")

To give you an idea of difficulty, I've snagged just about every 1887 Detroit card that has come my way, sometimes good deals, sometimes not. Ignoring a couple cards I picked up in the 1980s, I have been able to complete 19 of 28 1887 Detroit poses in the last 16 months (in nice "gradeable" condition). I fully expect to complete all 28 with time, maybe another year. The fact that my cards, the 1887 Detroit Wolverines, happen to be from the long numbered series (1887 "0" numbered cards) helps. With 11 of the 28 cards being HOFers, total investment is in the $20k range. One pose of each player would be significantly less, maybe $7000. I also luck out by picking Detroit as the other 7 National League teams and the American Association Brooklyn Grays have more, sometimes twice as many poses for 1887.

Then there are the many subsets that usually get mentioned such as the Browns Champs (1887 short numbered series), the Spotted Ties (1887 Script cards, a bit more difficult), portraits (spread throughout the set), double player cards (spread throughout the set), etc.

Pick a collecting habit that matches your interests and financial abilities. And then practice patience.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Although I have little experience in collecting OJs, that does not stop me from having an opinion. My opinion is that this series contains serious treasures which can be enjoyed and appreciated based on ones preference. I find that collecting multiple poses of a player (some have 17) presents a very interesting portrayal. Some collect only outdoor photos, multiple player cards, former NA players, mascots and more.

But OJs are not for trying to get each one. That may be Gypsy Queens, K-bats and other similar issues from the 19th century. I recommend that you take the subsets which primarilly interest you, and focus your collection efforts on the sets of great difficulty, but less volume.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Well it has been a very long time between posts but this one I can not pass on.

As most of the older posters know I use to post on the Full-Count board and here for sometime until this board got off subject way to many times. I do read the board from time to time I just can't resist.

I had collected this set aggressively for three year. And no Joe it was not a "business opportunity" for me, it was a passion, better yet an obsession. I always take offense when somebody tells me I collect for the investment of it. Well I guess I better tell the story publicly so everyone can hear it from me. I was collecting the set by player only and had amassed over 500 cards and 425 different players. I had help from some of the greats in the Old Judge world especially Jay Miller. He took we under his wing and sold me lot of 50 in the very beginning and also gave me a lot of the hints to what's rare, but a lot I had to learn from my own research. So for that I would like to say thank you again Jay! Many other people helped me along the way, my friend Kevin Struss, David Levin, Terry Knouse, Barry Sloate, and many other people on this board.

As for my N172's, they went in a collection that I can see when ever I want and have full access to at all times. I am currently still working with this collection very closely and only need 60+ players cards for one card per player completion and the collection is totaling well over 1000+ cards. The reason for selling my collection is first how much access I still have to the collection and they have a WAY better home than with me. These cards where never about the money and I believe your collections should never be as well.

I would love to give any help that I can to fellow collectors as this curtsey was give to me. But I do have to say that there are a few secrets I have to take to my grave. There are many tough cards in the set and figuring out which who they are was the most excited and challenging part for me. Happy hunting!!!

p.s. All of my SGC graded cards are now free of there tombs. Yes I had to crack all the cards out myself and put them in albums. It was quit liberating!

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Trevor--I appreciate your thanks, but they are for the most part undeserved. I provided some minimal advice but little more. You succeeded in putting together a great collection in an amazingly short time through hard work and determination. You are solid proof that the best investment that one can make in the hobby is an investment of time and effort to learn about your particular area of collecting, not an investment of dollars. While you may need both to accumulate a world class collection, employing the latter without the former will surely lead to disappointing results.

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Posted By: craig

my thanks to you trevor. trevor was the first collector that i came across that shared my more modest oj collecting goals/intrests. i collect the players from iowa, mainly des moines. i was told to contact him by other members on this board. he is truly a passionate collector of oj's, as well as des moines history, and was a great resource for some awesome dm photos and information. i am glad to see that you are still lurking here on the board. i have scanned all of the 20's-30's dm register/tribune press photo's for you if your still interested. i lost your address to mail the cd to. please email me if your still interested.

craig

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Trevor, glad to hear from you. I appologize if I jumped the gun but you gave every indication you were out of the hobby all together. We used to swap very enthusiastic emails that I enjoyed a great deal. I figured some life altering event had occurred but then found out you sold the collection. Your absence from all forums, no replies to my emails, no longer buying cards on eBay left me thinking you "sold your investment" with no interest of getting back in.

BTW, it has been nice bidding on eBay without competition from snider4prez

I'm a little confused though. I'm surprised you reached 425 different cards by the time you sold the collection. You only have 125 listed on the SGC registry which you kept updating with regularity until the end. You must have added significant content in the final couple months, I'd (we'd) love to know what rarities you managed to find. Can you tell us who now owns the cards? Are you still building on the collection for your friend? Should I again expect competition from you on some of the harder to find Detroits?

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Craig, It was great discussing Iowa baseball history with you. You too are a wealth of knowledge when it come to the great state of Iowa and the many years of baseball history that we love. I will contact you a.s.a.p.

Joe, I know that you did mean to take a stab at me. I just wanted to clarify what the story was just so people didn't think I collect for the investment of it. I have a very strong love for this hobby as I am third generation and still going (my 4 year old son) and my cards will never enter my portfolio, now matter how much money they are worth for the moment.

I haven't stop buying cards, I have just not been buying from ebay lately as it's not the great bargain it ounce was. By the way OJ's are way out of this world right now, also when you only need 60 or so cards things have a tenancy to slow down.

As for the N172 collection, I had been manly buying raw cards, IE the Baldwin Park deal over 100 cards, a large group (120+) of the Oregon find, and quit a few card from privet collectors. I had every HOF'er, Browns Champ, six spotted ties and many rare cards but I will save that for the book. I am still actively working with the collection and it's a blast.

As for me not responding to e-mails, I do not spend a lot of time on the computer, actually my life has been pretty wrapped up with my amazing son and lovely wife. I do recommend the hobby of your family, it's a hell of a lot more rewarding than cardboard.

I wish everyone the best and you will see me in the trenches from time to time.

Trevor Hocking (I have a new Ebay handle)
trevor@synergystudios.tv

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Posted By: Geoff Litwack

for all the great advice. When the time comes, I think I'm going to try collecting Philadelphia players - staying true to my roots.

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Posted By: J Levine

Hmm, you picked a challenging one if you are going to try Philadelphia players...lots of rare poses and extremely tough Hall of Famers. Not to mention the Old Judge set includes all three major teams (A's, Phillies, and Players Leauge)...take it from a frustrated Phillies collector, it is difficult (but still fun)...over the years I have acquired nearly 30 different O.J. poses/captions for Phillies. Good luck...

Joshua

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Posted By: Anonymous

wow Jim. That's some collection!!!!!!!