20th Century Baseball

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

That century had quaint occurances in it just like those of the nineteenth century.

- Everyone carried on about the sancity of Ruth 60 home runs in a year - so much so that Maris' record had an asterisk at first. Boy did McGuire and Sosa show them at the end of the century! Both averaged over 60 home runs for 4 consecutive years.

- For 50 years the Big Train sat alone in the 3000 strikeout club. In the 70s Gibson joined him. Then in the 80s the floodgates opened. By the time the dust settled in the early 2000s, there was no longer a 3000K club. Four pitchers had exceeded 4000Ks and the bar was raised. Walter Johnson no longer made the grade.

- Like Johnson, the Bambino sat alone in the 700 HR club for nearly 50 years until the 70s when joined by Aaron. But the floodgates did not then immediately open. However, by the early 2000s we find Bonds a virtual certainty to join these two with Sosa and others ahead of Bonds pace right now. Of course this does not impact Ruth's standing. But it does eliminate the significance of the 500 HR club.

I imagine that the above and other standards which previously existed, will be forgotten much like Ed Delahanty's record of 7 RBIs in an inning disappeared once Tatis hit 2 grand slams in an inning. Old standards are not cherished. Or are they?

Old records which have been with us since our childhood are difficult to part with. What do you think?

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Posted By: Scottopotamus

Baseball is the only place where the following is true:

714 > 755
2130 > 2632
4189 > 4256

Scottoptamus
My T206 Web Site

http://www.freewebs.com/scottopotamus

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Posted By: jay behrens

The one nice thing about the cheap HRs is that it should keep questionable players out of the HOF like McGriff. Definately an outstanding player, but HOFer and HOF type career do not come to mind when I think of him. Same goes for Ks. Pitching Ks are almost meaningless now since it is no longer considered shameful to strike out. Johnson's 3,000 Ks is still more impressive than Ryans total becuase Johnson did it in an era when it was a digrace to strikeout.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I dont want to start a HOF discussion but the same thing you think will keep McGriff out will get McGwire in on the first ballot.He didnt have a hall of fame career,he had a couple great seasons,a couple good seasons and some horrible seasons in the middle and end of his career. A 1st ballot hall of famer doesnt get pinch hit for in the playoffs.Hes going to be the worst one tool player elected in recent years,so dont say homers dont count as much as they used to.

I dont care if McGwire gets elected as long as they dont put him in the same class as Ripken and Gwynn when he does,and if theres any justice he wont get more votes than either of those 2.

I just cant see handing a hall of fame plaque so easy to someone who had the same amount of strikeouts as hits,unless they also did more than hit home runs.Maybe if he was a great fielder,had speed,hit for average,did well in the playoffs.....but they will

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Posted By: Soren

Baseball is the only place where the following is true:

714 > 755
2130 > 2632
4189 > 4256


I don't think this premise is true and I know my son will not believe any of this. Ruth was likely the greatest baseball player ever, but Hank is the HR king. Ripken's streak had so much fanfare, people will rarely even mention Lou outside of ALS.

I do like the last one. I'd love it if Rose was forever remembered as simply an answer to an obscure trivia question as OBP and SP become more important than BA.

Soren

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Posted By: jay behrens

I wouldn't vote for Mac either. He has no business being considered for the Hall other than be met the minimum requirements. He's a worse choice than McGriff. Sadly, being a media darling and fan favorite will help Mac, just as it helped Puckett

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Rhett

"people will rarely even mention Lou outside of ALS."

Except that Gehrig was better than Ripken at every aspect of the game except for a completely overhyped and overrated streak.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet MD

The Hall of Fame
Mcgwire should and will be in the Hall. After all it's not the hall of the best all around statistics. The Hall of Fame was created to house fan favorites who have made a mark in history via baseball.

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Posted By: jay behrens

No, the HOF was started to honor the best of the best. Along the way, it got perverted by the Veteran's COmmittee and they started voting in their buddies even though they didn't deserve it.

Mac doesn't belong any more than Maris belongs. Mac could do one thing, and one thing only, hit the ball really far. Big deal. He was a mediocre fielder at best and legged out a large number of doubles into singles. Do you really think someone who hit .201 in a full season, at a point that should of been the start of the peak of his career, really belongs in the HOF? He had a few incredible years hitting HRs, but they don't even rate on the level of Koufax incredible. And I don't think Koufax belongs either.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Gary B.

This might not be a point of view that everyone agrees with, but McGwire deserves to get in for 3 reasons:

1. The weakest reason - 583 home runs (as weak reasons go, this one ain't bad)

2. AB/HR - McGwire got a home run every 10.6 at bats - that beats Foxx, Mays, Aaron, Bonds, even Babe Ruth. Barry Bonds has been beating that number easily in the last few years, but not over his career as a whole. This is an amazing record that may well stand for decades.

3. 1998 - The whole McGwire/Sosa spectacle of 1998 did more for baseball than hundreds of millions of dollars of advertising ever could have done. It brought tons of people (including me) back to the game who had wandered away.

Naturally, if all he had was that one great season, it wouldn't be enough, but comibined with the other two reasons, he's in. Admittedly, his all around numbers aren't so hot, but these 3 reasons together are more than enough for me. He'll never achieve the all around stature of the players I mentioned above, not even close, but it's still enough to get into the hall without a doubt as far as I'm concerned.


Nolan Ryan - without even comparing Walter Johnson's strikeout total in the deadball era, still 5,714 is a ridiculous number. It's very rare that a pitcher will have a career of 20 years, and when they do, they'd have to average 285 strikeouts a year for all 20 to match Ryan.

Randy Johnson in his 17 years has averaged about 243 strikeouts a season. He'd have to play another 6 1/2 years to match Ryan keeping that same average. Possible? Maybe, but he'd have to play as consistently until he was 47.

Roger Clemens in 21 years has averaged about 205 strikeouts a season. He'd have to play at that level for 7 more years unitl he was 49 to catch Ryan.

Pedro Martinez in 13 years has only averaged 203 strikeouts, and he's not even half-way to Ryan. He'd have to keep pitching that well until he was 48 or so.

Even considering the era in which Ryan achieved this, still this is an unbelievable number that could only be achieved because of the rare combination of being a master strike-out artist and having unprecedented longevity - a combination that may never come around again, or at least for many decades to come.

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Posted By: The Ohter One (Julie)

You don't have to answer that...

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Posted By: jay behrens

Maris put on a hell of a spectical in 1961 battling Mantle for the HR crown and record. And his seasons before and after were outstanding. And even with 2 MVP awards that McGwire never came close to winning, Maris doesn't belong in the HOF. Neither does Mac. If you are going to get in under what I like to call the "Koufax rule" you had better have a peak like his and dominate the league for 5 years. Mac and Maris didn't. The only reason Mac will get in is because the media liked him and he was a fan favorite. He would enver get in on the merits of his career.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: jay behrens

One more thought on Mac. He admitted using a performance enhancing drug, albiet legal, and no one really thought that much less of him or really questioned his record. This mainly stems from his popularity.

Conversely, Bonds is merely alledged to use a performance enhancing drug, legal at the time, and yet he is looked upon as a crimal and his HR numbers questioned. This can be attributed to the fact that he is generally disliked by fans and media alike.

Double standards and hypocracy never cease to amaze me.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Soren:

I believe that Lou is much bigger than his streak, and although Ripkin is also, Lou is one of the few who has achieved a lifetime slugging percentage over .600. This status can not be easily taken away. That is, until the bar moves up to a .700 slugging percentage being the target milestone. By then tho, everyone we currently hold in esteem will have gone the way of the 500 club.

Gil

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Bonds, like his godfather, is a first-rate horse's ass, which is why he gets slammed by the press and public. The more of jerk you are on the way up, the less slack people cut you and the more people will look to take shots at you. Less popular = less reputation. More popular = better shot at the HOF. It ain't fair, but it is entirely human.

Mays always whined about Mantle being the more popular guest/signer/higher priced card, even though he was the better player. Mick was more popular because he made an effort to be affable in public, or at least not surly and rude to his customers. Mays seems to go out of his way to alienate fans. I remember when I went to get a Mays autograph in the 80's (I was a huge Mays fan as a kid). He was so rude, wouldn't even say hello back to me, that I got completely turned off and sold off all the Mays cards I had (and I had them all). I got autographs from a lot of my other childhood idols (Jim Brown, Sandy Koufax, Hank Aaron, Muhammad Ali, Sylvester Stallone, Roger Moore, Walter Payton), some for pay and some for free, and all were cordial or even appreciative of the fact that I was an fan and was willing to wait and/or pay for their sigs. As shown by the reports from Cooperstown, Mays has remained true to form, a consistent jerk.

Bonds is an incredible player, one of the best ever, but he is also not a likeable guy and has a tin ear for public relations. Crapping all over Babe Ruth's reputation recently was just the latest example of Barry being Barry, and Bonds isn't half the player Ruth was (they may be parallel in hitting but I'd like to see Bonds win 90+ games as a pitcher--Ruth was the greatest all around baseball player in history). Big Mac, for all his holes as a player, was (is) a decent guy, or at least is publicly perceived as such. Is he a HOFer? I'd say yes on his stats (if Maris hadn't been hurt and had racked up 500 HR's I'd say he goes in too--fact is, he had three good seasons plus a great 1967 WS), but also on his impact and performance, because one of the criteria for selection is contribution to the game. Frankly, I think Big Mac belongs more than Eddie Murray, who was a very very good player, but not a great one, and who hung on for a long time to get the final numbers up there (I remember his time in LA--useless as showing a painting to Stevie Wonder. Or Fred McGriff in TB or LA).

Bonds fans who think their guy isn't getting the love he deserves should remember what the Beatles said: "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

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Posted By: qualitycards

Jay - Do you feel Killebrew is justly enshrined in Cooperstown?
I have always thought that mcGwire was a modern day Killebrew.
Had a better batting average and Home Run %...jay

Killer - 8147 AB - 573 HR - .256 BA
McGwire - 6187 AB - 583 HR - .263 BA

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Posted By: Gary B.

Bonds fans who think their guy isn't getting the love he deserves should remember what the Beatles said: "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

Well, we live in different worlds. I was just saying to my wife the other day that I don't know what I'm going to do in terms of following baseball once Bonds retires. I check out cnn/si every day to look at the baseball news, but the first thing i always check for is to see what bonds has done and what amazing totals he's added to each day. i then follow how well the giants are doing because i would love for him to win a world series. i follow the rest of the sport as well, but i'm more into statistics then standings, and there is NO ONE putting up the numbers he is. Once he's gone, unless someone does something as amazing to take his place (HIGHLY doubtful), I'll be following the game more generally with a little less enthusiasm (though still naturally into vintage cards) until someone else comes along who can have seasons with 70 home runs, 200 walks, 100 intentional walks, .600 on base percentage .800 slugging percentage and a .370 average. I think the guy is fantastic no matter what anyone else says. We're witnessing something very rare, and I plan on enjoying every moment of it, but I suspect those that don't like him won't be moved by my words. Oh well, it won't stop me from being a fanatical Bonds fan.

Talk about unbreakable records, he's amassing several of them that are going to be very tough to match...

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Posted By: John

Also lets not forget that many of these records from the past are so impressive simply due to the time in which they were archived. Many of these records like Johnson, Cobb, Aaron, Ruth, and Gehrig were done in times without the aid of modern day medicines, growth hormones, personal trainers and modern equipment. Social issues and views also played roles in the achievement of these records. In the case of Aaron and other black greats simply getting in and off the field I’m sure was an emotional stress due to the social views many people had towards black athletes.

When I look at record it’s not just a number to me there are many factors that I take into consideration so to me all records even broken ones are sometimes amazing and in a way unbreakable even though technically it was broken. Maris is a perfect example not only does he archive an amazing season with 61 home runs beating Ruth’s record but does so with constant stress, anxiety attacks and daily death threats. Clearly something no modern player has had to endure.

I can’t help but think that the aid of these modern convinces helps the modern player to achieve great things.

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Posted By: Gary B.

"Maris is a perfect example not only does he archive an amazing season with 61 home runs beating Ruth’s record but does so with constant stress, anxiety attacks and daily death threats. Clearly something no modern player has had to endure."

I don't know about contstant stress and anxiety attacks, but Bonds did get death threats in 2001 from people who didn't want him to beat McGwire's record. He didn't reveal this to the end of the season, but he had to endure this kind of thing as well, even in our more modern times...

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Posted By: jay behrens

I just ran some rough numbers:
Killer hit .256 when the league BA during his career was .246
Mac hit .263 when the league BA during his career was .264
Killer hit 573 HR when the average player hit 14.6 HR/year
Mac hit 583 HR when the average player hit 17.6 HR/year

Even though Mac's raw numbers may be comperable to Killer's, when you adjust for league average, he's really not that impressive. Killer also has the benefit of having played several positions other than firstbase during his career. He came up as a secondbaseman, then moved to third before finally ending up first and DHing at the end.

Also, Mac never won an MVP and finished top 5 in the voting only 3 times. Killer had one MVP and finished in the top 5 in voting 6, 3 of those in the top 3.

Jay



I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Mark

Aside from those eligible in previous years (e.g., Sandberg, Sutter, Rice, Dawson), the following become eligible over teh new two years:

2005: Jim Abbott, Jeff Blauser, Wade Boggs, Tom Candiotti, Chili Davis, Jeff King, Mark Langston, Jack McDowell, Willie McGee, Brian McRae, Jeff Montgomery, Otis Nixon, Tony Phillips, Mark Portugal, Terry Steinbach, Darryl Strawberry

2006: Rick Aguilera, Tim Belcher, Will Clark, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Juan Guzman, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Lance Johnson, Doug Jones, Roberto Kelly, Mickey Morandini, Hal Morris, Jaime Navarro, Luis Polonia, Mike Stanley, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland, Mark Whiten

I know Tom is a favorite in the collecting world, but objectively speaking, it doesn't look like a lot of HOFers to me aside from Boggs. If it were up to me, I'd take the opportunity to let Rice in.

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Posted By: jay behrens

"...it doesn't look like a lot of HOFers to me aside from Boggs. If it were up to me, I'd take the opportunity to let Rice in."

This is a pet peeve of mine. A player either belongs, or he doesn't. Just because there is a weak group coming eligable doesn't mean you start scanning the holdovers to see who you should vote for.

Rice was the Bonds of his day and no one wanted to see him at the plate. I think he belongs, but it's sad when it takes a weak class to get deserving players in.

Boggs is the only player in the next 2 years I would vote for. Although you could argue Gooden. Reverse his career numbers and you get Koufax.

Jay


I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Mark

Over half the hall would be out, and I wouldn't have any cards to collect!

I'm even more skeptical about what the drought will produce. I expect the weak list for '05 and '06 to either allow (i) more holdovers or (ii) more selections by the veterans' committee. I will predict Boggs, Rice, maybe Dawson, and a player named by the veterans' committee (e.g., negro leaguer, umpire, personal friend). If a relief pitcher gets in, I hope it's the all-time saves leader.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am all for "one and done" with HOF voting. A player's career is not like a fine wine, it doesn't get better with age. You either belong in the HOF, or you don't. And 5 years is more than enough time to figure out how he measures up to contemporaries. What makes a player a HOFer 10 years after he retires, but not worthy 5 years after he retires? It makes no sense. One and done would also help stem the tide of the watering down of the HOF.

Those outside looking in that I think belong; Rice, Lee Smith, Santo, Sandberg and Jack Morris. Dawson is iffy.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

As Scottopotamus so aptly started this thread, baseball fans have a tremendous ability to reject the breaking of cherished records. Certainly 60>61 is an excellent example of this. Once the 162 game asterisk was removed the rationalization among many fans was that Maris was a fluke. He never approached that level of HR production prior to nor since 1961, while Ruth had seasons of 54 + 59 HR before achieving 60.

And baseball history appeared to bear this rationalization out. No one approached 60 again for over thirty more years, until McGuire.

In my very humble opinion, McGuire's accomplishments at the conclusion of the 20th century, particularly when coupled with those of Sosa and Bonds were exactly what many baseball fans needed to release our cherished hold on the Babe's 60, and usher in the "good new days".

Specifically, after a couple of seasons in which he hit 52 + 58 HR, McGuire moved the bar up in 1998. No longer were we talking about home run production in the 60s. Setting a new season record would now require greater than 70 HRs. And to put the icing on the cake, McGuire finished out the century in 1999 with another 60+ season which gave him a average production for the last four years of the century of over 60 HRs. Four consecutive year average above Ruth's best season.

But is even this demonstration strong enuff to sway a die hard Ruth fan? It does not matter, because Sosa and Bonds duplicated this feat. That is, in 1998 Sosa also hit over 60 homeruns and he repeated that feat in 1999. 2000 was an off year for Sosa (50 HR) but he came back the following year to hit >60 and have an average four year production over 60 HR. In that last year, Bonds hit >70 HR, thereby establishing that McGuire was no fluke.

Babe Ruth's 60 home run record was accomplished and ended in the 20th century.

And McGuire played a big role in this.

Although it is easy to focus on what McGuire has not done in his baseball career, it is difficult for me to believe what he has done. That accomplishment makes him famous to me, and deserving of the Hall (which is a hall of FAME).

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gilbert, very nice piece, but Mac still doesn't belong. He was soooooo deficient in so many other areas of the game. He is basically Dave Kingman with more power. At least Kingman could play other positions. During his career he spent time at 3B and OF besides 1B and he even pitched 4 innings of a game one time.

Mac did have a lot to do with revitializing the game at a time when it was hurting, but this doesn't warrent a place in the HOF. He was and is the epitome of the one dimensional player and they have no place in an already waterdowned HOF.

The HOF is for the greatest of the great. Players that can do more than just one thing.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jay,

The romantic in me wishes that the Hall of Fame was a tribute to the greatest of the great, and I know that it started out that way. Somewhere along the line the hall became something else (I do not really know what it has become). I have no punch line here. There is no "but ... , however ..., nor witty insight". I have lost respect for the Hall.

Gil

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Posted By: Josh

Players today played in such a different atmosphere than in Ruth's day. What makes Bonds so impressive ( I can't stand him as a human being, but he's a fantastic hitter) is that he has to play night games, face a curve ball, and play on each coast, sometimes in the same week. Ruth, on the other hand, played in the deadball era, when hitting a home run was not that common. I think the record before Ruth's was 35 or something, held by Frank Baker? Add to that the fact that Bonds is walked so many times, he rarely sees a pitch he can hit.
There is nobody less deserving that Bonds to take over Ruth or Aaron's place on the all time HR list. If Bonds does break the top 2, I will be sad, but also appreciate his ability as a pure hitter.

Second, somebody on here mentioned how Cobb's record was greater than Roses', and how Rose will only be an answer to an obscure trivia question. Rose should be in the hall, based on his status as the all time hit king. He played most of his games on astroturf, and faces the similar conditions I mentioned in the previos paragraph. True, what he did while manager was dispicable, his actions as a hitter were tremendous. If we are going to vote people in based on their character, than Ruth, Mantle, and surely Cobb would not be in. Cobb did much worse than Rose, i.e. being a complete racist, sliding spikes up.

I dunno, this is just my opinion, please feel free to criticize! This is a great thread, and I enjoy reading the debates!

"I had a better year."
Babe Ruth, on why he got paid more than the President of the United States.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I believe Ned Williamson held the single season record prior to Ruth. Baker picked up the nickname "Home Run" because of his heroics in the World Series.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: W.W

McGwire was not one dimensional. He never hit for a high average, but McGwire was a fantastic defensive first baseman. I will repeat that, Mcgwire was a fantastic defensive first baseman. He was an American League gold glove winner and would have been a multiple gold glove winner if not for Don Mattingly. His fielding percentage is comparable to Keith Hernandez, who was widely considered the best fielding first baseman of his day, and only slightly behind that of Mattingly.

As far as McGwire and steroids, when he realized the public had such an issue with a legal supplement he stopped taking it, and his power numbers dropped dramatically the next year. Wait a minute, no they didn't. Bonds has a known relationship with a steroid supplier.

McGwire has always hit HR's, even his rookie year he hit 49. Also, when Mcgwire hit a homerun he hit them high and he hit them far. When Bonds hits a homerun into McCovey cove everybody freaks out, but are people aware that it is only 305' down the line and to hit one in the water only takes a 350' shot?

Bonds also has a strike zone the size of a paper plate. The reason for this is because he stands on top of the plate. Why does he stand on the plate? He stands on top of the plate because he has nothing to fear, he wears a "robo-arm." I use to think the guard McGwire wore was too big but it looks like a bandaid compared to the atrocity that Bonds sports.
Barry Bonds is a better ball player than Mark Mcgwire, no one should dispute that. However, McGwire is, and should be, a Hall of Famer.

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Posted By: jay behrens

WW, I was waiting for someone to bring up that Gold Glove. The GG award is about the most meaningless piece of hardware awarded. It rarely has anything to do with a player's defensive ability and more to do with how well he batted. I lived in the Bay Area while Mac was in Oakland and watched him play all the time. Mattingly wawsn't even the best 1B in the AL. Hrbek was better, but MAttingly got the GG becuase of his bat and the fact he played for NY. Mac was a decent 1B but he lacked any type of range and you never saw drop into a split the Hrbek could. And Herby wasn't a svelt guy.

As for the shots into The Cove, if it was so easy, then why have only 4 other people ever been able to do it. I've been lucky enough to stand at home plate at SBC and that wall looks so close that even I could knock it over. But it obviously isn't an easy thing to do.

And I will agree that I don't like body armor on any player. Bagwell and Biggio are 2 others that come to mind when I think excessive body armor. This stuff should be taken away from the players so the pitcher can get the inside of the plate back.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

They officially hit rock bottom in 1999, when Rafael Palmeiro got one at first base despite having played only 28 games at the position.

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Posted By: Joe P.

Let's not forget that the Babe started off as a pitcher, and also the length of the season during his time if I recall correctly, was only 154 games.

As for his homeruns, he and the world would credit that to his enormous appetite.
He could down a dozen hotdogs, and wash it down with a gallon beer.

No prescriptions needed .... only afterwards.

Having said that, .... the man stole home several times.
As O'l Case would say, "You can look it up."

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Posted By: John/z28jd

Mentioning Keith Hernandez and Mark McGwire in the same sentence when talking about defense is one of the most ridiculous statements ive ever heard.Jay is 100% correct,if McGwire hit 10 hr's a year he wouldnt have been considered a gold glove winner on his best day.Mattingly was a very good defensive player,i saw him play every day and didnt like him one bit because i never liked the Yankees and i can admit that he was well above average.Thats one of the reasons he was able to play 3rdbase and even 2nd despite being a lefty.

McGwire is highly comparible to Ralph Kiner and they show that too much credit is given to one aspect of the game.I cant see someone saying,yeah i hit homers but i also batted .263 struck out 150 times a year,would lose a foot race to Ron Hassey and played almost average defense(and wasnt a catcher,cf,ss or 2b),why shouldnt i be in the hall of fame!

Ive said this before and this is just my own way of thinking.Take away a guys best season then look at his stats and let me know how good he is.If he makes the hall of fame on the first ballot his stats should still warrant induction without his best season.Without his 70 HR season id tell McGwire TS and go hang out with Canseco and talk about your bash brothers days.That being said i still think hes a hall of famer based on hall of fames standards now but if he gets more votes than Ripken or Gwynn it will show voters are very misinformed and infatuated with HR's

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Posted By: W.W

I agree that McGwire wasn't the defensive player that others may have been, but you can't argue with his fielding percentage either- .993
I also agree that gold gloves are overrated, how else can you explain Bonds winning as many as he did?

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Posted By: jay behrens

fielding percentages are deceiving too. The perfect example for comparision is Riken and Ozzie Smith. Ripken had a lifetime .979 FP and Smith .978 FP. No one would ever mistake Ripken for an equal of Smith's defensively. The one thing that FP doesn't show is a players range. A ball that Ozzie Smith gets to, knocks down and gets called for an error is a ball that gets past Ripken for a double or a single. These sorts of things don't show up in FP.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jay,

As I stated earlier, I wish that the Hall of Fame was "for the greatest of the great. Players who can do more than one thing". But it is not.

The Hall "honors, by enshrinement, those individuals who had exceptional careers, and recognizes others for their significant achievements". (excerpted from their mission statement).

In my humble estimation the averaging of over 60 home runs for four consecutive seasons consitutes a significant achievement in baseball. Therefore, if the Hall excludes (whatshisname) then they would be behaving contrary to their stated purpose, independent of if he ever fielded his position.

Have fun - its only baseball,
Gil

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Posted By: jay behrens

Just becuase Rabbit Maranville and other undeserving players are in doesn't mean that you let everyone with a career comparable to his in. And to let someone in under the "impact the game" catagory, they need to have done something truely special. Most of use might wonder what's so special about a curveball, but if you have read articles from the era, the curveball was something no one thought possible and was a truely amazing pitch for it's day that changed the game. Hoy should also get in if he is the person responisble for hand signals.

Sorry, but averaging 60 HRs over 4 impressive, but doesn't change the game. If we let Mac in for this reason, do we start letting in everyone else that does something spectacular for 4 years. The HOF would get so watered down as to be rendered meaningless.

Mac doesn't need to be enshrined in the HOF. Like Maris, he will always be remembered for setting a single season milestone in HRs.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Bill James wrote about McGwire in 1991 when asking this question: "Is he a good player, even hitting .235?"
The answer:
"This guy is a great player hitting .230. He'd be a good player hitting .210. Even hitting .230, he still brings you:
1) Gold Glove defense at first base
2) A hundred walks a year, for a .370 on-base percentage
3) More power than any other current major league player. He is the only major league player who averaged two bases per hit throughout his major league career."

He finished his career with a .394 on-base percentage. He ended up averaging over two bases per hit throughout his major league career.
Also, although he finished with 583 homeruns - how many homers did he lose playing the first 11 1/2 seasons of his career in Oakland. That was not a good hitter's park for him and it is very likely he would have finished with over 600 homeruns hitting in virtually every other park.

Mcgwire might be a one-dimensional offensive player but he will hardly be bringing down the standards of the Hall.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Does anyone here consider Canseco a hall of famer? You might get 10% of the people saying yes,30 saying maybe and 60 saying no.

McGwire will go 1st ballot,minimum 75% votes,throw in some maybes and its basically the opposite of Canseco.

Now go look at their career stats and tell me whats wrong with that kind of thinking? Are they really that different overall when you take everything into consideration?

I dont care if he makes it or not,i just care how high hes held in peoples eyes because of a 4 year stretch when before that stretch he wouldnt even have been an afterthought.

Theres definitely more deserving people than him that arent in right now