19th Century Team images - Can you identify any of these guys?

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Posted By: rob

Thought I’d throw out this thread to see what the board’s thoughts are on a couple of team images that I have. One is of the 1891 AA Boston Reds and the other is of the 1887 NL New York Giants. Outside of Brouthers at the middle right of the large Boston cabinet image and Mutrie (in top hat) in the albumen image I will keep my opinions to myself so as not to influence anybody’s thoughts. After reviewing my limited Old Judges and other sources such as the Library of Congress internet site I have an idea on a few of these guys but after awhile these guys all start looking the same. I will throw out some of my guesses later in the tread to see if anybody concurs. I’d be interested to hear the opinions of the board.





Hope I didn’t over-do it with the image size!

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I'm still looking at the Boston photo. I'm having a tough time placing most of those guys. Are you sure it's the 1891 team?

Not that I'm so confident on my guesses of the New Yorkers, but....

front row (l - r): Pat Deasley, ? (this sure looks like Elmer Cleveland, but he didn't play for the Giants in 1887), Bill George, George Gore, Pete Gillespie

back row (l - r): ?, Willard Brown, Jim Mutrie, Danny Richardson, Pat Murphy.

Did we agree on any?

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Posted By: rob

It is definitely the 1891 Boston team as it is written in period ink on the bottom of the picture. I'll put question marks where I am uncertain and leave the question marks off where I feel strongly about the ID. The Boston team starting back row, left to right: Charlie Buffington, Paul Radford?, Hugh Duffy, John Irwin?. Middle row: Tom Brown?, George Haddock?, Morgan Murphy?, Arthur Irwin, Duke Ferrell, Dan Brouthers. Bottom row: Bill Daley, Cub Stricker and Darby O'Brien.
For the New York photo I am much less certain. My guesses starting with the back row left to right: Stump Weidman, Mike Slattery? or Mike Tiernan?, Jim Mutrie (in top hat), Mickey Welch? or Mike Slattery?, Tim Keefe?. Front row: Canonball Titcomb? or Mickey Welch?, Elmer Cleveland?, Elmer Foster, George Gore? and Cannonball Crane. For this photo I am uncertain of the year but the uniforms fit for 1887 and Mutrie's time as manager narrows it down to that period also.

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Posted By: rob

I'm also guessing that the fellows holding balls in the New York photo are pitchers. I base that on the two at the right that I believe are Canonball Crane and Tim Keefe. So...the guy on the front left may also be a pitcher. Seems that a lot of the 19th century team photos that I have seen have the pitchers holding a ball. Another interesting note - In the Boston photo you might be able to see that Brouthers is sitting on his pipe!

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Posted By: Hankron

Hi Rob. Do you own these photos and, if so, what are the sizes?

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Posted By: rob

Yes, they are mine. I have a few others and I'm sure always looking for more. As far as the sizes...The Boston image is an oversized cabinet by Boston photographer Conly. Without the mount, the image size is roughly 10" x 12". The New York image is an albumen photo with no photographers stamp'. Without the mount the image size is roughly 6" x 8".

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Posted By: Hankron

Rob, they're both nice and, the Boston in particular (as the image is so nice and the photo is unusually large), is worth a pretty penny.

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Posted By: rob

Here's a couple of other interesting images to share with you. CDV of the Brandywine Club circa 1868 and another of the Xenia (Ohio) Ball Club circa 1868. I don't suppose anybody has any identification on any of these guys??

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Posted By: RobertS

Where did you find the major league cabinet cards? They're terrific!

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Posted By: rob

Those two were actually auction items. The NY team was misidentified as 1895 as I recall. I've got a few others that I do have identifications of the players. One of the more intersting is a cabinet of the 1884 AA Columbus team and another (a very large albumen) of the same team but when looking closely you can see that they were two different photos taken at the same sitting. I've found another picture of this same team in a book that is yet another slightly different image taken at the same sitting. If somebody out there has some major league cabinet photos available I'd be interested in buying or possibly trading one or both CDV's.

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Posted By: Hankron

As far as the Columbus photos go, the photographer sometimes made a hugh photograph that the smaller cabinet cards would be made from. It's possible that a monster version of a cabinet card would be a large presentation photo, but often times they were 'proofs' or the original art for cabinet cards-- essentially production art. So, if you have a large photo closely related to a cabinet card, it may be the photographer's proof.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Ahh.. my kind of thread!

Rob, beautiful items... please keep posting more images.

Can you post photographer's imprint information?

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Posted By: rob

That could be a possiblity. I haven't yet seen, however, a cabinet of this exact picture. Below you can see both images and you may note that Kemmler (back row) has his arms crossed in the cabinet image and arms down in the large albumen. The other photo I've seen is also slightly different. Another item of interest is that the back of the albumen photo's frame is composed of pieces from a shipping crate. You can piece together the letters forming "Pittsburg" on these crate pieces. That is where the Columbus team moved to the following year. Don't know if that might of been of any significance or not.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

The 1884 Columbus image Rob mentions is pictured on John Cashmanian and Congdon-Martin's book "Baseball Treasures" (Page 48)

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Rob,

Any chance that you have an 1874 Cabinet or CDV of the Findley, OH baseball team?

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Posted By: rob

No, but I do have a small cabinet base ball image of an identied man from Findley, Ohio circa 1880's. It's an action shot. I can't quite make out the partial lettering on the front of his uniform to be sure if he's on the Findley team though.

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Posted By: rob

Jimmy - the image you mentioned I had overlooked. I pulled out my book and noticed it is the same as my large albumen with the exception of the writing. If you look in "The Great Encyclopedia of 19th Century Major League Baseball" by David Nemec you'll see on page 155 the other variation. Schmelz's hand is in a slightly different position amongst other subtleties (sp?). Also, in Nemec's "Beer and Whiskey League" book about the AA, page 58 shows this same Columbus team in their other uniforms. The images that I have I believe might be from later in the year as their uniforms have a unique feature. Their shirt sleeves are removable (buttons held them on). Some players have the sleeves off, some on, and some rolled them up.

P.S. Jimmy - The cabinet's imprint is Pfeifer, 228 and 232 South High Street Columbus Ohio. No imprint on the ablumen but obviously Pfeifer.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Rob, You can find more on your cabinet photographer in this book: Ohio Photographers 1839-1900 by Diane Gagel.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887694072/qid=1059885367/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-2752148-4195141?v=glance&s=books

It's always nice to read about the guy who made a beautiful image.

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Posted By: rob

Thanks Jimmy

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Posted By: rob

By the way Jimmy...do you still have the CDV of the Enterprise player I think you picked up from me some time ago? I sold a nice 1878 Boston team composite cabinet to someone out there awhile back also. Kind of wish I'd kept it now.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Rob, still have the Enterprise player CDV...
Not a big team or known face, but a very nice early image.

Mark Rucker had it listed as the Enterprise BBC of Philadelphia on his book, but about a month ago, I was contacted by a baseball historian from Pottsville, PA with some early baseball game reports from the local newspaper.
Team was from Pottsville just like the photographer.

http://www.19cbb.com/enterprise.htm

Remember that 1878 BOS Cabinet... Now that was a great piece! Think I still have the image saved from your auction listing.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Rob, you may want to join us on the chatroom some day.
You can meet some fellow collectors and talk about early images with me, while they talk about T206's...

Just click on the Chat link on the upper right corner of board's main page.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Rob:

Nemec's Beer and Whisky League has your Boston photo on page 234 as part of a montage that includes head shots in street clothes of all the team members.

You should be able to get all the names from that.

Kevin

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Posted By: rob

Thanks Kevin. I had seen that some time ago and used it to get pretty close on most of the identifications. In spite of it I still had a little trouble with a few of them. Seems everybody had the mustache back then and a lot of the guys would start looking alike. Sometimes it takes the opinion of others to narrow it down. What's your thoughts compared with the list I presented earlier in this thread??

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Rob:

I think the guy on the far right in the top row is Morgan Murphy and not John Irwin. And I have the guy to the left of Arthur Irwin as Bill Joyce and not Morgan Murphy. Other than that we agree on all the others.

Kevin