LOTG Auctions closing rules

[Golfpro10]

I like Love of the Game Auctions. I often bid in there auctions as they are beginning to grow. I have seen this issue brought up before. In my opinion they need to take a serious look how they close an auction. It’s after 3 am and the auction is still open. It gives the feel of trying to squeeze every penny. After 1 am just have each lot close lot by lot if there is no bid for 15 mins. It’s pretty simple. If you dont have your bid in by 1:15 am then you miss out. This waiting until 3-4am too see if you won or have to raise a bid or make an adjustment somewhere is excessive imo. Just my thoughts.

[Al C.risafulli]

Hey there!

Just happened to see this post, so I thought I'd chime in.

It's really a misconception that our auction is open til 3am.

90% of our auction is closed by 1am, and that's a pretty consistent percentage with each auction. At 1am, we close off every lot that has not been receiving bids.

The rest of the auction remains open for as long as bidders feel they want to bid. It's not us keeping those lots open, it's the people bidding on them. Since it's our job as an auction house to give our consignors every possible opportunity for their consignments to do well, we want to make sure that every bidder gets every opportunity to place the bids they want to place, and not to have them get shut out by a clock, or because a lot they were bidding on closed while they were trying to win a different item, or for some other reason.

The reality is that at 3am, there were a couple dozen out of 2100 lots that were still receiving bids. That's a pretty low percentage. We had an auction that was able to close out 90% of the lots by 1am with no issues, and then leave the remaining lots open as bidding dwindled down until there were just a few items receiving bids.

For folks not interested in sitting by their computer to watch the auction, we've got an auto-bid feature that allows you to leave a max bid and walk away (we do not shill our auctions, the auction house or its employees don't bid in the auctions, and we don't have hidden reserves, so you can trust this system). Also, you have the ability to receive outbid notices by text message so that you don't have to constantly refresh a screen all night.

Basically, we try and make it so that there's really no reason for you to stay up all night and watch this auction, unless you're actively bidding on one of the lots that is receiving bids!

Best,
-Al

[Golfpro10]

Hey Al. Thanks for the reply. As I said in my original post I like LOTG and most everything you are doing there. I would say I am not alone when I express my concern with the last items closing at almost 3:45 am. There are items after 1 am that are open that are not getting bid for multiple hours but are staying open. Basically all I am saying is if an item is open after 1 am its gets extended for 15 mins. If it gets a bid it gets extended for 15 mins. If it doesn’t get a bid it closes. I won one of your nicer large items today that didnt receive a bid for almost the last 2 hours. Just a concern that I wanted to raise that I have also heard from other bidders. Thanks again for the response and congratulations on the auction you had some amazing lots.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Golfpro10

...It gives the feel of trying to squeeze every penny...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doing that is kind of what a consignor wants from their auction house, isn't it?

And I'm a guy whose bids were almost all on items that didn't close until the very end.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doing that is kind of what a consignor wants from their auction house, isn't it?

And I'm a guy whose bids were almost all on items that didn't close until the very end.

Another nice benefit of living in California. NJ, not so much.

[perezfan]

I love their closing method. Wish the others would follow suit. Auctions with the "lot by lot" closing method make it impossible to switch over to other lots, if your limit is exceeded on the current item.

The "lot by lot" method is detrimental to consignors too. Lots of money gets left on the table that way. I personally hate that format.

[Leon]

Please obey this rule near the top of every page in bold letters. Thanks in advance.

" If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it."

Originally Posted by Golfpro10

I like Love of the Game Auctions. I often bid in there auctions as they are beginning to grow. I have seen this issue brought up before. In my opinion they need to take a serious look how they close an auction. It’s after 3 am and the auction is still open. It gives the feel of trying to squeeze every penny. After 1 am just have each lot close lot by lot if there is no bid for 15 mins. It’s pretty simple. If you dont have your bid in by 1:15 am then you miss out. This waiting until 3-4am too see if you won or have to raise a bid or make an adjustment somewhere is excessive imo. Just my thoughts.

[aljurgela]

I figured that I would voice my distaste for the method. It just seems odd to me that an item that gets a couple of bid from 9PM to 3AM is still open.

In my case, there is a card that I am leading and then someone bids against my Auto bid at 11PM or so, so that it will not close in the first round and then does not bid again until I am asleep (say 2:30AM).

Now in fairness they did go over my auto-bid, so I probably would not have won, but I am fast asleep at 3AM so even if I want to bid one more increment, I did not.

I also "miss" items on the individual clocks of some auction houses when bidding on many items, but for some reason that bothers me less than the bid against me while I am sleeping.

Anyway, seems like I am in the minority and most seem to like LOTG auction format. I was glad with REA went away from "whole auction at once" and have fully embraced the individual clocks.

Just my take.

btw... Al Jurgela is my full name

[Golfpro10]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

I figured that I would voice my distaste for the method. It just seems odd to me that an item that gets a couple of bid from 9PM to 3AM is still open.

In my case, there is a card that I am leading and then someone bids against my Auto bid at 11PM or so, so that it will not close in the first round and then does not bid again until I am asleep (say 2:30AM).

Now in fairness they did go over my auto-bid, so I probably would not have won, but I am fast asleep at 3AM so even if I want to bid one more increment, I did not.

I also "miss" items on the individual clocks of some auction houses when bidding on many items, but for some reason that bothers me less than the bid against me while I am sleeping.

Anyway, seems like I am in the minority and most seem to like LOTG auction format. I was glad with REA went away from "whole auction at once" and have fully embraced the individual clocks.

Just my take.

btw... Al Jurgela is my full name

I agree with this of course. And thats my push back a little bit with the way the auction ends. People are saying its great for a Cosignor because it stays open longer. I would argue so many people are asleep which probably limits the chance of any bidding wars. As a cosingnor thats your dream situation. FOMO kicks in. Heat of the moment and a bid war breaks out. That is unlikely if you know an item is going to stay open until 4 am. The goal as a bidder in that situation is to wait until 4 am and take out the persons max bid at the last possible second and hope they are asleep and no chance for a bid war. I will say this again. I think Al does a great job. LOTG is gaining market share and deservedly so. I just think he could tweak how it closes a little bit. Just my opinion.

[Snapolit1]

I don’t think I could stay up to 3:30 am if Sydney Sweeney was driving over to my house with a bottle of champagne.

[Golfpro10]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don’t think I could stay up to 3:30 am if Sydney Sweeney was driving over to my house with a bottle of champagne.

Hahahaha 😂😂. I literally laughed out loud. That was great.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Golfpro10

Hahahaha 😂😂. I literally laughed out loud. That was great.

But you still don't comprehend the rule at the top. So, here is your name..

J0hn C@rzoo

Now you know, thanks!
.

[Golfpro10]

Originally Posted by Leon

But you still don't comprehend the rule at the top. So, here is your name..

J0hn C@rzoo

Now you know, thanks!
.

Thanks Leon. I was trying to figure out how to attach my name to the bottom of my profile. I thought that's what you wanted me too do and not just my name in a single comment. I have seen lots of other members do this so I know it can't be that hard, but like you said I am a little slow and I couldn't figure it out. My apologies.

[Golfpro10]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Hey there!

Just happened to see this post, so I thought I'd chime in.

It's really a misconception that our auction is open til 3am.

90% of our auction is closed by 1am, and that's a pretty consistent percentage with each auction. At 1am, we close off every lot that has not been receiving bids.

The rest of the auction remains open for as long as bidders feel they want to bid. It's not us keeping those lots open, it's the people bidding on them. Since it's our job as an auction house to give our consignors every possible opportunity for their consignments to do well, we want to make sure that every bidder gets every opportunity to place the bids they want to place, and not to have them get shut out by a clock, or because a lot they were bidding on closed while they were trying to win a different item, or for some other reason.

The reality is that at 3am, there were a couple dozen out of 2100 lots that were still receiving bids. That's a pretty low percentage. We had an auction that was able to close out 90% of the lots by 1am with no issues, and then leave the remaining lots open as bidding dwindled down until there were just a few items receiving bids.

For folks not interested in sitting by their computer to watch the auction, we've got an auto-bid feature that allows you to leave a max bid and walk away (we do not shill our auctions, the auction house or its employees don't bid in the auctions, and we don't have hidden reserves, so you can trust this system). Also, you have the ability to receive outbid notices by text message so that you don't have to constantly refresh a screen all night.

Basically, we try and make it so that there's really no reason for you to stay up all night and watch this auction, unless you're actively bidding on one of the lots that is receiving bids!

Best,
-Al

As a side note for everyone. I have been chatting with Al a little bit and he is one of the most polished and professional people I have met in the hobby. We may disagree a little bit on how an auction should close but he has done extensive research on auction closings and he feels this is the best route for his consignors as a whole so I won't argue with that. I love what he has done at LOTG, he is one of the good guys and I can't wait to see what his next auction brings.

PS. I picked up a very nice item in his most recent auction and I can't wait to show the group in the coming days.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I don’t think I could stay up to 3:30 am if Sydney Sweeney was driving over to my house with a bottle of champagne.

I definitely could.

Another reason I don't care for the entire or partial auction closing late night is that even if I'm comfortable using max bids, I personally don't sleep well not knowing if I won an item or not, especially on something rare and/or expensive.

[doug.goodman]

The main issue seems to be the late night finish, so why not start extended bidding at noon instead of at 9 pm?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Bicem

I definitely could.

Another reason I don't care for the entire or partial auction closing late night is that even if I'm comfortable using max bids, I personally don't sleep well not knowing if I won an item or not, especially on something rare and/or expensive.

I love the Hunt live auction format.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I love the Hunt live auction format.

It's great, provided you don't have bad cell reception and/or need to work in the middle of the day.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I love the Hunt live auction format.

Remind me what it is, please.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Remind me what it is, please.

Live auction. Bid on line. One item at a time. Going, going …… sold. Old school.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Live auction. Bid on line. One item at a time. Going, going …… sold. Old school.

I love that too - it’s a rush to bid on something in that way - but it’s in the middle of the day.

I am much more likely to be free to bid on something at 1:00 AM than I would be at 1:00 PM.

[Topnotchsy]

I enjoy Hunt when I am able to be on at that time. But I haven't always been able to, and I've had issues with the login during auction time. (Have occasionally had such issues with other live auctions as well. Sucks when it happens)

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The main issue seems to be the late night finish, so why not start extended bidding at noon instead of at 9 pm?

Right. Or, if the working theory is that the longer the auction stays open, the more bids, why not just close all the lots at a reasonable time but run the auction one day longer?

I disagree that running auctions into the wee hours maximizes bids. High hammer prices result from two or more bidders going toe-to-toe. That doesn't happen when some need to get sleep. With a 20- or 30-minute rule per lot, interested parties have plenty of time to slug it out (and maximize the hammer,) and then go to bed.

I also don't like going to bed uncertain if I've won or lost.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Right. Or, if the working theory is that the longer the auction stays open, the more bids, why not just close all the lots at a reasonable time but run the auction one day longer?

I disagree that running auctions into the wee hours maximizes bids. High hammer prices result from two or more bidders going toe-to-toe. That doesn't happen when some need to get sleep. With a 20- or 30-minute rule per lot, interested parties have plenty of time to slug it out (and maximize the hammer,) and then go to bed.

I also don't like going to bed uncertain if I've won or lost.

It's not specifically about the "wee hours", the wee hours are just a byproduct of the 9 pm (or any after dark) start of extended bidding.

My way to guarantee all possible bids (good for sellers), and a pre-wee hours end (good for buyers) is :

1 - Extended bidding starts at noon Eastern.

2 - Only previous bidders can bid on an item.
2a - items with only one bidder close at noon.

3 - Any lot that goes one hour without a bid closes.
3a - When the entire auction goes 10 minutes without a bid the entire auction closes.

4 - The auction will end before the sun goes down on the west coast.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Live auction. Bid on line. One item at a time. Going, going …… sold. Old school.

I like that, too.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

3 - Any lot that goes one hour without a bid closes.
3a - When the entire auction goes 10 minutes without a bid the entire auction closes.

I like your ideas, but see 3a as possibly problematic. Bidders (maybe many bidders) who are trying to outlast their competition might wait 50 minutes before increasing their bids, but suddenly, surprise!, the entire auction ends.

I much prefer the simple Heritage rules - if you're bidding on some lots, you have a 30 minute rule on each one. Battle it out within a reasonable timeframe, know if you've won or lost each lot, and get to bed at a decent hour.

I always place my initial bids on all the lots I'm at all interested in on the first or second day, when the amount necessary to bid is much less than what the lots will sell for. That way I can be active on everything I care about in extended bidding, as some of the lots will exceed what I'd want to pay, allowing me to re-focus on the others. And if any of those low initial bids hold up, great, I've gotten a steal.

I also love the Hunt live auctions. For exciting bidding, nothing comes close, and I think the adrenaline, heat of the moment results in high hammers, when that FAIR WARNING message starts flashing.

[jefferyepayne]

I'm a big fan of lot by lot closing auctions but as expressed in another thread, I don't mind a double close like LOTG does. I do mind the double close not starting until 1am, though. I think some are missing the point. For those of us who need to get up very early, anything past 11 is a huge issue. I'll do it for a lot by lot close but nothing else since it may take hours for things to wrap up.

No, max bids are not the answer, sorry. Many reasons have been discussed elsewhere and, quite honestly, this is a crutch for not addressing the primary issue which is how late auctions close.

And for anyone that thinks bidders bid more in a wee hour auction, there is no evidence of that that I've seen. What I've seen is when you close lot by lot on a 15 minute timer, there is a flurry of action for 30min - 1hr thereafter where all those stallers have to bid to stay in the game. No more bid and stall for an hour or two trying to wait people out. And some might argue all of that action nudges some to bid more than they would have otherwise. I know I have personally decided to go above what I had set as my 'limit' many times when faced with the reality of bidding once more and winning something rare or not winning it at all.

jeff

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I like your ideas, but see 3a as possibly problematic. Bidders (maybe many bidders) who are trying to outlast their competition might wait 50 minutes before increasing their bids, but suddenly, surprise!, the entire auction ends.

Part of the "outlasting the competition" logic involves the west vs east late night closing, which goes away with my system.

Also, nobody will wait 50 minutes to increase their bid if the auction might end sooner, the key to late bids in "entire auction closes after X minutes with no bids" auctions is watching the recent bids in the auction. If there hasn't been a bid on anything in 9 minutes then you better bid on the item you want that you aren't winning.

[ooo-ribay]

The LOTG method just became clear to me, since they have an auction going right now. I mistakenly thought it was lot by lot. Whatever. I don’t like this method, but it is what it is. I’m not a big time enough collector to do much other than ebay.

[tiger8mush]

Brunk just had an auction close lot by lot starting on a Thursday morning 2 weeks ago and prices were strong. I don't get this 2am stuff.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

The LOTG method just became clear to me, since they have an auction going right now. I mistakenly thought it was lot by lot. Whatever. I don’t like this method, but it is what it is. I’m not a big time enough collector to do much other than ebay.

It all worked out. A fellow Giants collector and myself were watching the Clyde King Tour of Japan stuff. It all went cheap, IMO. I got what I wanted and my goofy friend forgot to bid.

[Topnotchsy]

I don't mind having an initial period of time where only those who have already bid can continue to bid though I am not really sure the point to be honest.

When it comes to the second half though, I really wish it closed item by item. I think the current approach is counterproductive. I want to wait until the last possible moment to bid, yet at the same time, have no gauge on whether the auction is coming close to ending.

When an item ends individually, I know I need to be there slugging it out during that time. I can anticipate when it will close and time my bids. I can make sure I am there/awake at that time.

I'm curious to hear the economic argument for the current set-up, since I don't really see one.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I don't mind having an initial period of time where only those who have already bid can continue to bid though I am not really sure the point to be honest.

When it comes to the second half though, I really wish it closed item by item. I think the current approach is counterproductive. I want to wait until the last possible moment to bid, yet at the same time, have no gauge on whether the auction is coming close to ending.

When an item ends individually, I know I need to be there slugging it out during that time. I can anticipate when it will close and time my bids. I can make sure I am there/awake at that time.

I'm curious to hear the economic argument for the current set-up, since I don't really see one.

I think the argument for “all at once” was to get the best possible price for the consigner.

I can see perezfan’s point if you are bidding on a bunch of items.

As someone bidding only on one item, I’m with Jeff in that if my item is subject to an individual 15 minute rule, I can be there T 9:00 EST and do what I need to do.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I think the argument for “all at once” was to get the best possible price for the consigner.

I can see perezfan’s point if you are bidding on a bunch of items.

As someone bidding only on one item, I’m with Jeff in that if my item is subject to an individual 15 minute rule, I can be there T 9:00 EST and do what I need to do.

I've heard the argument, but I don't see how this get the best price for a consigner. In theory, you could expand that argument to never end the auction at all, as more time could always lead to more bids.

In my mind, what drives the final price the highest is the fear of losing the item. And if a person is unsure when the auction will end, their fear of losing the item is countered by a desire to not bid too early. And if the auction ends at a time when many people are no longer awake, it means no opportunity for the excitement of the competition to drive more bids.

[rand1com]

All lots should go to individual clock at 11:00 PM eastern and end when no bids are placed on that lot on 15 minute intervals. Going until 3AM makes no sense. Is it possible to go that long lot by lot, yes, but not likely.

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by rand1com

All lots should go to individual clock at 11:00 PM eastern and end when no bids are placed on that lot on 15 minute intervals. Going until 3AM makes no sense. Is it possible to go that long lot by lot, yes, but not likely.

Would your opinion be the same if you had an item consigned? How about multiple items?

This is a never ending debate i know but feel like most consigners want auctions open longer for more action and thus money. Buyers would prefer lot by lot so they can win(or not) and hit the bed.

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Would your opinion be the same if you had an item consigned? How about multiple items?

Yes and yes.

I will not consign to an auction house whose auctions extend into the wee hours of the morning. Why? Because as a bidder I know I pretty much disregard these auction houses.

If an AH thinks it needs to extend its auction to 3 a.m. in order to maximize prices sold, my guess is it doesn't have a lot of faith in its bidder pool. So I choose not to consign with them.

Purely anecdotal, and many disagree. But when I hear the arguments on why it's a good practice, I don't agree with them.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Would your opinion be the same if you had an item consigned? How about multiple items?

This is a never ending debate i know but feel like most consigners want auctions open longer for more action and thus money. Buyers would prefer lot by lot so they can win(or not) and hit the bed.

Yes. I have consigned many items and prefer a reasonable ending time. The items are up for at least two weeks before the last day. Going into the next day on all lots when only a few are getting bid is ridiculous. Most of the auction houses are now reasonable with closing terms.

[perezfan]

As someone who consigns frequently to LOTG, I love the current format and wouldn't want it any other way. Most items do not even go into that final overtime period, but those that do continually realize prices I'm happy with.

As a bidder, I appreciate an auction that keeps all lots open, as opposed to individual closings. As someone with a finite amount of money to spend, I frequently jump from one lot to another (if a given lot exceeds my limit). You can't even do that if your alternative lots have already closed.

[BRoberts]

I'm sure Al appreciates your support.

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

Hey there!

Just happened to see this post, so I thought I'd chime in.

It's really a misconception that our auction is open til 3am.

90% of our auction is closed by 1am, and that's a pretty consistent percentage with each auction. At 1am, we close off every lot that has not been receiving bids.

The rest of the auction remains open for as long as bidders feel they want to bid. It's not us keeping those lots open, it's the people bidding on them. Since it's our job as an auction house to give our consignors every possible opportunity for their consignments to do well, we want to make sure that every bidder gets every opportunity to place the bids they want to place, and not to have them get shut out by a clock, or because a lot they were bidding on closed while they were trying to win a different item, or for some other reason.

The reality is that at 3am, there were a couple dozen out of 2100 lots that were still receiving bids. That's a pretty low percentage. We had an auction that was able to close out 90% of the lots by 1am with no issues, and then leave the remaining lots open as bidding dwindled down until there were just a few items receiving bids.

For folks not interested in sitting by their computer to watch the auction, we've got an auto-bid feature that allows you to leave a max bid and walk away (we do not shill our auctions, the auction house or its employees don't bid in the auctions, and we don't have hidden reserves, so you can trust this system). Also, you have the ability to receive outbid notices by text message so that you don't have to constantly refresh a screen all night.

Basically, we try and make it so that there's really no reason for you to stay up all night and watch this auction, unless you're actively bidding on one of the lots that is receiving bids!

Best,
-Al

Thanks for a thorough explanation. I still like the 11PM cutoff with each lot on a 15 minute close with no bids but if 90% end at 1AM then I guess that is acceptable.

Like others have stated, I really like your auction and integrity and it is impossible to please all consignors and bidders on every issue but overall LOTG does an outstanding job in the auction world. Thanks for that!

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Thanks for a thorough explanation. I still like the 11PM cutoff with each lot on a 15 minute close with no bids but if 90% end at 1AM then I guess that is acceptable.

Like others have stated, I really like your auction and integrity and it is impossible to please all consignors and bidders on every issue but overall LOTG does an outstanding job in the auction world. Thanks for that!

This would be my preference as well. I'd definitely prefer an earlier close time.

And I definitely agree with the second statement.

[ValKehl]

Al, I realize that you are totally wedded to your auction closing method, which I and others don't especially care for because of how long your auctions run into Sunday mornings. I think this issue would be significantly bettered if you would merely begin your auction-closing process 2 hours earlier, but keep the same time intervals - i.e., 9 p.m. EST becomes 7 pm, 12 midnight becomes 10 p.m., and 1 a.m. becomes 11 p.m.

Al, I assume you have already become aware from a post in the LOTG pickup thread that the 1921 Tip Top Bread card of Lefty Grove that sold for about $40K would have sold for more, perhaps significantly more, if an avid pursuer of it hadn't fallen asleep. And, I doubt that your consignor of this card is thrilled to learn this. Yes, I realize that a bidder can safely leave a max bid because your integrity is of the highest level, but you should realize that many collectors just can't bring ourselves to leave max bids. I am one such collector, and I was bidding on a gotta-have card; at 1:30 a.m. my tired 81-year-old body was about to fall asleep at my PC; so, I decided WTF and put in a max bid and went to bed; yes, I did win this gotta-have card.

[benjulmag]

My issue with an AH rationalizing a 3am closing time by saying a bidder can leave a max bid whenever that bidder decides he wants to go to sleep is that such a max bid might not reflect how high the bidder will really go once he/she learns he/she has been outbid. This concern is not mere theorizing, but reflects how humans function. There have been numerous occasions, this LOTG auction being the most recent, where I ended up bidding substantially higher than I originally intended. I believe it is a human trait for a person, upon learning he/she has been outbid, to cause that person to reconsider how high he/she will be willing to bid. In the end the person might not change his/her bid; but I believe in many occasions he/she will. That is why, whenever anybody asks me how high I will be willing to bid for an item, to respond by saying I won't know until I am faced with the prospect of being outbid.

In this most recent LOTG auction, I won the lot I did by staying up to 3am. The earlier max bid I placed, after which I went to bed, only to wake up before the auction ended, I ended up raising by several intervals once I learned I had been outbid.

I would respectfully ask Al to consider, as a previous poster suggested, moving the entire ending process up by 2 or 3 hours. That way the AH can give all its bidders the chance to bid on other lots once they have been outbid on a previous more-favored lot (something over the years I have done a number of times (and being grateful the closing format allowed me to do that)), but at the same time allow bidders to go to sleep at some reasonable hour knowing that the auction has closed.