Soaking (water only) - 1915 Cracker Jack?

[Belfast1933]

I recently picked up a great 1915 CJ card here from a board member (thx Ian, great transaction) and wanted to ask this group about anyone’s experience with water soaking to try and clean some dirt from the back of the card.

I don’t want to get into the chemical washes that are out there but just distilled water, light touch cue tip to try and remove the dirt from the back. I’ve only done a few to remove glue, which seems to work well.

My question - I believe the 1915 CJ card stock is a little more hearty than 1914 but wanted to ask if anyone knows of risks like print running, etc. Not sure I want to try without first a test - but I hardly have any 1915 Cracker Jack Commons around to test this on!

Anyone ever give a water bath to a ‘15 CJ and live to tell about it?

Thx all

Jeff

[ullmandds]

Ive soaked 15' cj with stellar results.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Ive soaked 15' cj with stellar results.

Have any before/after pics?

[ullmandds]

One of my luckiest vintage bb finds...at the star of the north antique show in st paul, mn. A guy with a display case had a bunch of items from an old scrapbook...he recalled there was another CJ card of a big name hofer that was sold...in the fist 2 pics u see it as i saw it in the display case. 3rd pic wlters swimming with the fishes...and the final result. I knew it was real but it appeared to have back damage. After I got it home I realized it was positive paper on the back...and I got to business. It came off quite easily with no physical prodding and the card front does appear cleaner for sure. It's amazing to see all the dirt in the water after the fact. I have since purchased a large, heavy book press specifically for the occasional card soak.

[ullmandds]

Voila!

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Voila!

nice results!

[akleinb611]

I'll join in on the chorus. About 30 years ago, at the White Plains show, I picked up a scrapbook sheet with eight 1915 Crackerjacks. Among them were a Rabbit Maranville rookie and a Branch Rickey. Fronts looked perfect, but the cards were firmly glued onto the page.

A quick soak in my bathroom sink in cold water lifted all the cards off cleanly. I believe I paid about $20 for the whole lot, a pretty good price at the time even if I hadn't gotten the cards off!

Sorry, no before/after pictures.

[Fred]

And if you soak it long enough, those pesky caramel stains from 1915 will also disappear, but the card might also disintegrate...

Such thin stock... good luck with the soak.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

I recently picked up a great 1915 CJ card here from a board member (thx Ian, great transaction) and wanted to ask this group about anyone’s experience with water soaking to try and clean some dirt from the back of the card.

Jeff

Is it dirt or oxidation ?? Oxidation will make old cards look "dirty" and soaking them in water will do nothing.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Is it dirt or oxidation ?? Oxidation will make old cards look "dirty" and soaking them in water will do nothing.

Looks like dirt (and scuffing too). Here is Eddie’s backside (so to speak)

[steve B]

It's likely none of that will come off without doing further damage.
There are areas where it's been tried and there's some surface loss.

The stock is porous and the dirt gets into it and usually won't come out.

[Snowman]

Someone has already tried to clean that card, just FYI.

As far as soaking them in distilled water is concerned, it won't damage them at all. 15 CJs soak just fine. Use warm water for better results. Put it in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with the warm distilled water for even better results, if you want. Be very careful though with a qtip on the back while it's wet. Wet paper is very vulnerable. Any amount of abrasion while it's wet will result in surface damage/loss.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Someone has already tried to clean that card, just FYI.

As far as soaking them in distilled water is concerned, it won't damage them at all. 15 CJs soak just fine. Use warm water for better results. Put it in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with the warm distilled water for even better results, if you want. Be very careful though with a qtip on the back while it's wet. Wet paper is very vulnerable. Any amount of abrasion while it's wet will result in surface damage/loss.

Thx for the technique tips… and how can you tell someone already tried to clean this one? Just curious what you see.

[samosa4u]

Nice card, but the back has been damaged (paper loss) and I see no point in soaking it.

[FrankWakefield]

You guys have differing vantage points on this. One wants to get rid of some of the dirt, another thinks don't soak because it won't increase the value of the card.

Soak the card.

Truth is that any of us who have 1914 or 1915 Cracker Jack cards most likely have ones that were soaked. The old collectors would advertise in city newspapers that they'd be at such and such motel or hotel on such and such weekend buying old baseball cards. I've spoken in person with several that did that. People would come to the hotel room listed in the ad with all kinds of cards. Many would be pasted down in scrapbooks from years ago. The collectors would tear the pages out of the scrapbook, lay the sheets in the bathtub, then run water into the tub. Overnight the cards would loosen and float off. If any of you have a CJ with great corners, the corners were probably spared corner dings because they were on a scrapbook page for 40 or 50 years.

Cracker Jacks soak wonderfully well. Some don'ts: Don't soak for a week or two (long soaks would lead to a bit of fading), overnight should be enough. Don't soak if there's water soluble pen ink on the card, it will bleed and spread on the card you're soaking (quickly blotting could minimize that). Don't go scrubbing on CJ paper, they are fragile, especially the 14's (T206s are on sturdier paper and can survive that better).

Cracker Jack cards soak very well indeed. And if you want less dirt on the card, go for it! You're not working on a surviving copy of the Declaration of Independence. Most of the CJs that survive today were soaked before many of us were born.

THAT Collins card looks like it has a dirty scuff on the back, as if it fell to the floor and was stepped upon. Ground in dirt might not loosen and release from the paper. Some dirt might. A soak won't hurt that card, and it may well get rid of some of the dirt. What Doc Ulman and AK said in their posts above is absolutely correct. If you want to take a shot and getting rid of some dirt, soak that card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would leave well enough alone. You're going to do more harm than good.

[FrankWakefield]

Peter, how many times have you soaked an E145?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The OP appears to have no experience soaking any card at all. Does he even know how to prevent cards from warping? A Cj of a hall of famer does not sound to me like a wise place to start just to get a little dirt out, possibly. I am not questioning your thoughts, as an expert, on soaking CJs generally.

[Fred]

Well, that is a good point. Practice on something cheap first. Find a crappy CJ on ebay and give it a shot.

[Fred]

Scratch that advice from the previous post - there are no CHEAP CJs on fleabay

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I once tried to remove ink from a CJ. Didn't go well.

Went from a PSA 4mk to a PSA 1mk. Doh!

[FrankWakefield]

Peter, being the precise and exacting person that you are, you didn't answer my question. Perchance it was because you have never soaked a Cracker Jack, you have no experience in soaking any card, and you deem soaking a card in only water to be altering a card and deceitful.

The collector who started this thread, Jeff G, was talking about water only versus dirt on a Cracker Jack card, a card that easily soaks. You're just again taking exception to something I've posted, ignoring the fact that you have no experience in the matter and your response conveys your bias instead of what you know. Jeff, you should be good to soak that card in water. Keep in mind that soaking isn't scrubbing.

Ink on a Cracker Jack, which wasn't on the card that CJ posted, AJ, is a totally different matter. Most ink in use around the WW I era were fountain, and they'd be using a permanent ink that won't soak, or a water-soluble ink that would bleed all over the card during a soak. Ball point pens usually have ink that is oily, you'd need a nonpolar solvent to tackle that, and you'd be likely to make a mess of the card. I don't think ball point pens would have been used very often for card signing in 1914/15. Ball point pens became readily available just after WW II. AJ, that looks like someone soaked the card in water then rubbed on the ink, creating a smudge. Nonpolar solvents, Bestine (rubber cement solvent), heptane, hexane, isopropyl or ethyl alcohol that is 90% or more the alcohol... they would work. But that looks like it was signed in the 50s or 60s, with a ballpoint pen, so that oily ink smudge was a likely outcome. I think I would have left that alone, but anyone could say that after seeing the results. NB, using that list of chemical warfare weapons a few sentences back, those bad boys will diminish the bright red fronts, the ink of the letters, and the image. Even if you slowly and carefully dabbed your solvent of choice with a Q-Tip, it would instantly permeate the paper and affect whatever is on the other side. I think it's a horizontal pose, so you could tell that there is a faded line from the top of his head down to his bellybutton. But again... the original poster was talking about using water only.

Jeff G, I've soaked about 30 Cracker Jacks. Zero problems doing that. It's worth mentioning for whoever reads this tomorrow or years from now, be careful with the 1915 cards, and VERY careful with the 1914 Cracker Jacks. The 1915 cards are fragile, and the 1914s are thinner, more like paper instead of cardboard. Be gentle with those.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Talk about reading into a post, you are way off base Frank. I have no objection at all to soaking in water, my only concern was that someone completely inexperienced might not want to start with a CJ Hall of Fame card. I pesonally have not soaked a CJ, I've done some nonsports with mixed results. My post was solely motivated by concern that the OP with no experience not make his card worse, not any so-called bias. But as long as you are dispensing good advice, perhaps you can advise Jeff of good practice so the card dries properly and doesn't warp? I've seen CJ's soaked by others that ended up looking like the waves at Waikiki.

[Kidnapped18]

Jeff
Soak away!!
I've never had a reason to soak my CJs as I like them the way they are...but the card is yours and you seem like you are leaning that way.

When you do soak your card please post the results!

[FrankWakefield]

OP Jeff...

If you've never soaked a card, try it with a T206 that has no ink pen or rubber stamp marks on it. Soak that. Then go through the drying process. That could get you familiar with the process. Then try your nice 1915 CJ Johnson. I'm not worried about you messing that card up. But others are, and I concede that it's possible to cause harm.

Distilled water is not necessary, use your tap water unless it has iron, rust color, or obvious particulates.

If that paper scrap loosens, once you're done soaking, run tap water on the card at a gentle temperature, neither cold nor hot, and gently rub a finger where the paper was, if you feel the flour paste still there, the flow of the water should soon wash that away.

Try to use a clear glass for soaking. If you see dirt or dust settled in the glass, or if the water no longer looks clean (because the water has acquired a coffee ting to it) then lift out the card, rinse the glass, then add water and card. (It just occurred to me that with water in glass with card in water, sometimes with a wet finger I'll move my finger across the front and back of the card, usually when it seems that there are a few air bubbles clinging to the card with surface tension. By touching those bubbles away I then have water adjacent to the entire card surface.)

Drying. 1- Nothing is exactly like anything else. 2- Analogies are useful to understand an item or process, if it has similarities with what the original something is. So, think of a bale of straw or hay. If you soaked a bale in water (ignoring that it would be much heavier than before) you could squash that bale much flatter than it was when dry. The paper of that 1915 Johnson Cracker Jack isn't solid, and it has a measurable thickness. If you soak it in a glass of water, then squash it in a vise to flatten it, then you've weakened the paper fibers and many collectors (and most graders), could notice, just by feel, that this card has been flattened. The point is to not try to mash the water out of that card. Put the glass you used on a smooth dishcloth or a couple of paper towels, then lean the rinsed card against the glass. A fair amount of water will gravitate down to the paper towels. Then lay the card down flat on a paper towel, and add paper towel over it, then blot on that with your hand.

Now you have some choices. Some paper towels have flat surfaces, some have a texture with swirls or some decorative pattern. You don't want to have your card conform itself to that pattern, so get something smooth. Printer paper will warp and unevenly absorb water, leading to wrinkles. you could change printer or copier paper often, but I find that it takes lots of paper changing. I usually use cardstock. You can get that on Amazon, at Walmart or Target, other places. Quarter that with scissors, maybe use double layers. I stack up several hardbound books; one on the bottom, then my blotting cardstock with the card sandwiched in between, then the rest of the books. I find the stack of books help me not forget about drying that card. I can change the blotting paper after a few hours, and again a few hours later. Too much weight pressing down on the card will unduly flatten it out and potentially transfer some card ink onto the blotting paper (this occurs very seldom, but if you use the weight of a safe, bookshelf, or couch that could happen).

Be patient, small steps are better than trying to rush the process. Private Message me here and I'll answer questions as you encounter them.

[Belfast1933]

No need to keep y’all in suspense… splish, splash, Eddie’s taking a bath. His backside deserves a little less dirt.

So far, so good… lots of dirt removed, as we had hoped. Scuffed areas remain, of course. But looking good after first try. As many experienced here have suggested, taking it slow and gentle.

Will post updated photos when done.

Thx all - several many detailed and experienced replies, and a few well intended words of caution. It’s all helpful, so thx again.

Photo update about this time tomorrow night

(Bonus - get to hold a raw CJ for the first time)

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Excited to see the results!

[CW]

Good luck!

Have you researched a good technique to dry out the card properly, Jeff? I can't give any advice here, but I do recall some threads in the past where members explained some tricks of the trade.

Looking forward to seeing the end result.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CW

Good luck!

Have you researched a good technique to dry out the card properly, Jeff? I can't give any advice here, but I do recall some threads in the past where members explained some tricks of the trade.

Looking forward to seeing the end result.

Frank offered a detailed guide just a few posts above.

[JollyElm]

I have a slightly different take on the drying process.
(This is for Topps-era cards, so may not be pertinent to a 1915 CJ.)

After I soak something, I'll sandwich it in a folded paper towel, weigh it down a bit on an extremely flat surface and wait a short amount of time. This basically soaks up all of that 'extra' water right from the get-go.
Then (with that paper towel now sopping wet) I'll replace it with a dry one and weigh it the f*ck down in a permanent position and leave it for days - without replacing the paper towel again - until it's dry (and flat).

I prefer this one and done (even though it's actually a quick two ) scenario, because the process of removing any wet, pliable card and trying to resituate it inside of a different (dry) paper towel without messing things up opens the door to human error.

In my book, the less interaction with a wet card the better.


ETA: it obviously works better if the sun shines relentlessly (like out here in CA) or if it's summertime and/or always hot enough.

[jingram058]

I just soaked a group of about 20 mid-1950s Topps and Bowman with mixed results attempting to remove tape. Whoever taped these cards used awful tape, like masking tape only super thick and strong. The tape came off during the soak, but where the tape lifted off came with it. Cards pretty much ruined, but I guess they look better with the tape gone.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I have a slightly different take on the drying process.
(This is for Topps-era cards, so may not be pertinent to a 1915 CJ.)

After I soak something, I'll sandwich it in a folded paper towel, weigh it down a bit on an extremely flat surface and wait a short amount of time. This basically soaks up all of that 'extra' water right from the get-go.
Then (with that paper towel now sopping wet) I'll replace it with a dry one and weigh it the f*ck down in a permanent position and leave it for days - without replacing the paper towel again - until it's dry (and flat).

I prefer this one and done (even though it's actually a quick two ) scenario, because the process of removing any wet, pliable card and trying to resituate it inside of a different (dry) paper towel without messing things up opens the door to human error.

In my book, the less interaction with a wet card the better.


ETA: it obviously works better if the sun shines relentlessly (like out here in CA) or if it's summertime and/or always hot enough.

Paper towels and pressure. This! +1
Overnight for step 2 usually suffices.
Screw down acrylic holders are f*cking great for Step 2

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I have a slightly different take on the drying process.
(This is for Topps-era cards, so may not be pertinent to a 1915 CJ.)

After I soak something, I'll sandwich it in a folded paper towel, weigh it down a bit on an extremely flat surface and wait a short amount of time. This basically soaks up all of that 'extra' water right from the get-go.
Then (with that paper towel now sopping wet) I'll replace it with a dry one and weigh it the f*ck down in a permanent position and leave it for days - without replacing the paper towel again - until it's dry (and flat).

I prefer this one and done (even though it's actually a quick two ) scenario, because the process of removing any wet, pliable card and trying to resituate it inside of a different (dry) paper towel without messing things up opens the door to human error.

In my book, the less interaction with a wet card the better.


ETA: it obviously works better if the sun shines relentlessly (like out here in CA) or if it's summertime and/or always hot enough.

Paper towels and pressure. This! +1
Overnight for step 2 usually suffices.
Screw down acrylic holders are f*cking great for Step 2 after the initial squeeze.

[Belfast1933]

Ok, here is the big reveal… I have to say, I like it! Of course, the card back scuffing is still present but I think it presents much nicer without that ground in dirt on it.

(First 2 pictures are the “before” obviously)

I will be keeping and enjoying the Eddie now that’s been de-soiled. I will probably send him in for an SGC tux to match my other 2 1915 CJs. Ironically, I am prepared to get a lower grade but that’s ok as I like the look much better this way.

Thx again all for the advice along the way - and my bonus of handling a raw CJ for the first time out of a slab was kind of cool and educational too.

Jeff

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did you lose some of the lettering on the back?

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Did you lose some of the lettering on the back?

Yes, it looks like more lettering came off.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Did you lose some of the lettering on the back?

Yep, lost a few more letters in the process... for me, its an OK trade-off. If I originally had NO words or letters missing, I might be disappointed.

But for me, I already had some word and letter loss PLUS a big dark dirt stain.

Now, the dirt is largely gone along with a few more letters. Was an OK risk for me with a net plus in the end for me/my PC. I expect that the grade will take a dip but I'm OK with that.

Thanks again, all, for the extensive thoughts and advice/experience. Now, add me to those who have given a CJ a bath.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Yes, it looks like more lettering came off.

But I thought soaking doesn't alter a card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

But I thought soaking doesn't alter a card.

It would be interesting if our experts weigh in on why this might have happened?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting if our experts weigh in on why this might have happened?

I'm by no means an expert, having precisely zero soaks to my name. Of any issue.

But I almost wonder if some of those letters were just barely hanging on, with the dirt acting as a bit of glue to sort of help to hold them in place. Take away the dirt acting as glue, and some small bits of the paper come off with it.

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm by no means an expert, having precisely zero soaks to my name. Of any issue.

But I almost wonder if some of those letters were just barely hanging on, with the dirt acting as a bit of glue to sort of help to hold them in place. Take away the dirt acting as glue, and some small bits of the paper come off with it.

Agreed. Zero soaks here as well but doesnt that back already look rather compromised from what Travis said was a prior cleaning?

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting if our experts weigh in on why this might have happened?

Don't know that I'm any "expert" but I'd guess he did at least little light rubbing or dabbing on that area.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Don't know that I'm any "expert" but I'd guess he did at least little light rubbing or dabbing on that area.

That would be my non-expert guess as well.

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That would be my non-expert guess as well.

yep, he did... very light. released dirt and a few extra letters here and there.

[notfast]

This was one of those times where you should have left it alone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by notfast

This was one of those times where you should have left it alone.

I said that in post 16 and was rebuked.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I said that in post 16 and was rebuked.

Yes you were unnecessarily shamed repeatedly for suggesting it. Was not too hard to see the outcome. Well on the bright side at least it was not a Jackson.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

OP was obviously too trigger-happy to soak that card without trying his hand on something else as was suggested, but it's his card and he says he's fine with the damage, so that's that.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

But I thought soaking doesn't alter a card.

And yet somehow, you still passed the bar exam?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be interesting if our experts weigh in on why this might have happened?

From abrasion. Not from soaking. Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by notfast

This was one of those times where you should have left it alone.

Really? You'd honestly prefer the before photo than the after photo? I think most people would definitely prefer the after pic.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Snowman

And yet somehow, you still passed the bar exam?

Go take a bath with your altered cards.

I provided you with irrefutable proof that paper getting wet and then drying fundamentally changes the structure of the paper. Soaking a card alters both the structure and the appearance of a card, which happen to be the two most fundamental aspects to card condition. So if you can play mental gymnastics to justify your alterations, more power to you. But don't insult my intelligence in the process. It is YOU who couldn't pass the bar exam with that logic.

"Hur dur, I'm altering the appearance and structure of a card to make it more valuable, hur dur, but I'm not altering it." :rollseyes: