Auction House thievery Lelands style

[CuriousGeorge]

So this past week Lelands had an auction closing and I won one card for a total of $60K. After receiving the invoice which included $623.59 for shipping and insurance, I contacted them to question it since I has simultaneously received invoices from Heritage and REA with higher value for much less shipping costs.

A woman named Jillian Clinedinst eventually responded to tell me that after looking at the invoice "it looks like they gave (me) a break. $606.59 alone is just for insurance given the total of your invoice (1% of the total is insurance) so they really only charged (me) $17 to ship." She proceeded to tell me "I can have the insurance removed if it is a problem. I just need you to respond saying that provided the material is well packed, Lelands will not be held responsible for any damages or losses during shipping."

I then asked her if her company was purchasing specific insurance with Fedex for this particular package or just using their general liability policy. No response. I asked again and she eventually went through all of the math with Fedex showing their insurance rates and how they got to $623.59 shipping. She specifically then said "we purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex based on the value of the shipment." And that "We purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex." She also reminded me that if I sent an email like she had suggested previously, that all of the shipping charges would be removed but they would take no responsibility.

Next I got another email from her. Because I was such a "good client with (them) she had reached out to her President on my behalf. He just got back to her and approved a break on my insurance loweing it to $200. He said in the event of anything happening we will absorb the remaining insurance."

I paid the bill and the card came today. I call Fedex and no insurance was ever bought for the package. I email Jillian and she doesn't answer. I email again and now receive a call from her "because she's so busy with invoices it's easier this way." She tells me they didn't buy insurance on my package because I didn't want to pay the full amount.

It's pretty clear to me this company is just stealing money from everyone under the auspices of paying for insurance on each package. In this case it was only $600+ but extrapolating it out over many auctions and many years it sure adds up. The bigger question for me is if they find the need to be stealing money from us this way when it is so obvious to see, what are they doing to us when we're bidding and in their T&C allowed to bid on any lots? Does someone perhaps have that answer?

PS - I just saw Lelands is an advertiser here so sorry Leon. But with all the shenanigans going on in this industry it doesn't seem right to let this pass as decent.

[BruceinGa]

I would ask for the $200 to be refunded.

[thecomebacker]

I’ve never heard of $600 for shipping unless your card is a PSA 9 or 10 1952 mantle and they are delivering it with an armored truck. Thanks for the head-ups.

[hcv123]

That said, I was advised by an old friend and store owner that people often "bid against themselves". As a result of what my friend shared, I chose not to bid in their auctions for years. Recently I have, but am always wary. Never thought to question the insurance - that's pretty slimy!

[Fred]

If they don't purchase any insurance at all, then they would have to self-insure the packages. There's probably a very good chance a Fed-ex package is going to be delivered so perhaps they feel they'll bite the bullet if they have to.

As long as they cover the loss, then I guess they're doing the right thing in that respect.

Is it ethical? It's probably not that it's unethical more than it is a perception issue. If they lose you as a bidder, then my guess is they'll have paid the price.

Why not ask to speak with Josh Evans, I'm sure he'd take your call.

[calvindog]

Josh is awesome on the phone, I agree ❤️

[perezfan]

I suppose you could have driven to New Jersey, picked up the card yourself, and saved a bunch of money on Shipping/Insurance. Or you could've flown to NJ to pick it up, probably at about a "break-even" rate.

Seriously, these exorbitant shipping/insurance charges are something I've always been suspicious of... not necessarily with Lelands per se, but across all auction houses (REA excluded). At least it sounds like your card arrived safely and undamaged, which is lots better than the alternative.

[JeremyW]

I recently purchased a baseball for $1,000 through an auction house & ended up paying 1,334.00 for the ball all in. I figured the premium & S&H, but when does it not make sense to sell at an auction house?

[Rhotchkiss]

There are usually at least two sides to every story, but based solely on your side, it appears Leland’s flat out stole $200 from you; charging you for insurance they never procured. That’s no bueno. And, just stupid business. You buy a $60k card, likely pay immediately, and they do this? That’s what I call penny wise, pound foolish. I expect they lost you as a customer. Unfortunate all around.

Meanwhile, REA sent me a shipping confirmation the day after the auction ended, the cards came the next day, and If I paid shipping and/or insurance, it was peanuts. REA is a class act, they know how to do things, and they are pound wise.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

There are usually at least two sides to every story, but based solely on your side, it appears Leland’s flat out stole $200 from you; charging you for insurance they never procured. That’s no bueno. And, just stupid business. You buy a $60k card, likely pay immediately, and they do this? That’s what I call penny wise, pound foolish. I expect they lost you as a customer. Unfortunate all around.

Meanwhile, REA sent me a shipping confirmation the day after the auction ended, the cards came the next day, and If I paid shipping and/or insurance, it was peanuts. REA is a class act, they know how to do things, and they are pound wise.

REA is by far my favorite auction house. Brian is smart, not a pig and his is the only auction house which I don’t need to call to ask where my cards are. He takes a loss on shipping but he understands the value in keeping the customer happy. It shouldn’t be so difficult to not use shipping and insurance as a profit center but this is our hobby. In addition he doesn’t bid on his own lots and doesn’t have wildly misleading scans, both of which Heritage is guilty of and is unwilling to change.

[painthistorian]

Hi Steve- I do agree with you now although Lelands has always treated me fairly.

[pokerplyr80]

8.25% of 60k is about 5k, not 600. Sounds like they knew what they were doing. I would be interested to hear their side though.

[calvindog]

Fed Ex does not insure collectibles except up to a small amount. They certainly do not cover a 60K card. Most auction houses either self-insure or have a third party policy.

[robertsmithnocure]

I do not even think that Fedex will insure collectibles. I bet that most collectible companies have a private blanket policy to cover all of their shipments. I am not sure if this is in the the 1% price range or not.

My guess is that Leland’s charges the 1% to either cover the cost of their private insurance or else they are just self insuring and figure that they will take the risk for 1%.

Either way, expensive shipping charges should be disclosed up front so that a bidder can take them into consideration when bidding.

*I did not see Jeffrey’s post. Looks like he beat me to it.

[CuriousGeorge]

First, it wasn’t tax. It was clearly shipping and insurance and I have many emails to attest to that. What it was is an outright money grab. I suspect they use their own insurance or self insure every package and then use FedEx rates to charge the clients. Whether it’s right, wrong, unethical or not is everyone’s decision to make. Where it becomes unquestionably unethical is when I ask them specifically if they are buying insurance from FedEx specifically for every package and they tell me they are. And then they don’t. That’s outright dishonest and thievery.

My assumption is they have stolen millions of dollars over the years playing this game and getting away with it. If someone complains they cut the fee so they make less. But still outright dishonesty.

So where does it end in this industry? PSA, PWCC, Moser, shilling at AH’s and now this along with all the other characters doing exactly what the others are doing but just haven’t gotten caught yet. It is pretty disheartening.

I welcome Lelands to come on and give their side of the story but they probably should read the emails first. They should do the right thing and donate all the money they stole on shipping from this auction to the charity of Hotchkiss’s choice. Or spend it on bigger ads on net54.

As an aside, I bought one much more expensive card from REA with a $20 shipping fee. I can complain all I want in the manner in which Brian closes his auctions but he is a prince of a guy and always seems to do the right thing. Fast delivery, packed great and always a pleasant transaction. In this ethical cesspool of a hobby that’s quite refreshing.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I do not even think that Fedex will insure collectibles. I bet that most collectible companies have a private blanket policy to cover all of their shipments. I am not sure if this is in the the 1% price range or not.

My guess is that Leland’s charges the 1% to either cover the cost of their private insurance or else they are just self insuring and figure that they will take the risk for 1%.

Either way, expensive shipping charges should be disclosed up front so that a bidder can take them into consideration when bidding.

*I did not see Jeffrey’s post. Looks like he beat me to it.

I promise you that the third party policy costs nowhere near 1% of the entire auction sale.

[painthistorian]

I know that this cannot be the actual sales tax by the amount, i just thought it was a computer generated error mixing up their invoicing fields but i guess you are correct, probably self insured packages...maybe they will accomodate you to keep you happy. I dont think FEDEX insures any collectible even express boxed for anything over $1000 thats why my bro in law who sells diamonds uses registered mail.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fed Ex does not insure collectibles except up to a small amount. They certainly do not cover a 60K card. Most auction houses either self-insure or have a third party policy.

That was my initial thought. So the answer doesn't make sense, nor does the rest of it.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Fed Ex does not insure collectibles except up to a small amount. They certainly do not cover a 60K card. Most auction houses either self-insure or have a third party policy.

From Jillian Clinedinst, the General Manager of Lelands.

IMG_7603.jpg

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

So this past week Lelands had an auction closing and I won one card for a total of $60K. After receiving the invoice which included $623.59 for shipping and insurance, I contacted them to question it since I has simultaneously received invoices from Heritage and REA with higher value for much less shipping costs.

A woman named Jillian Clinedinst eventually responded to tell me that after looking at the invoice "it looks like they gave (me) a break. $606.59 alone is just for insurance given the total of your invoice (1% of the total is insurance) so they really only charged (me) $17 to ship." She proceeded to tell me "I can have the insurance removed if it is a problem. I just need you to respond saying that provided the material is well packed, Lelands will not be held responsible for any damages or losses during shipping."

I then asked her if her company was purchasing specific insurance with Fedex for this particular package or just using their general liability policy. No response. I asked again and she eventually went through all of the math with Fedex showing their insurance rates and how they got to $623.59 shipping. She specifically then said "we purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex based on the value of the shipment." And that "We purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex." She also reminded me that if I sent an email like she had suggested previously, that all of the shipping charges would be removed but they would take no responsibility.

Next I got another email from her. Because I was such a "good client with (them) she had reached out to her President on my behalf. He just got back to her and approved a break on my insurance loweing it to $200. He said in the event of anything happening we will absorb the remaining insurance."

I paid the bill and the card came today. I call Fedex and no insurance was ever bought for the package. I email Jillian and she doesn't answer. I email again and now receive a call from her "because she's so busy with invoices it's easier this way." She tells me they didn't buy insurance on my package because I didn't want to pay the full amount.

It's pretty clear to me this company is just stealing money from everyone under the auspices of paying for insurance on each package. In this case it was only $600+ but extrapolating it out over many auctions and many years it sure adds up. The bigger question for me is if they find the need to be stealing money from us this way when it is so obvious to see, what are they doing to us when we're bidding and in their T&C allowed to bid on any lots? Does someone perhaps have that answer?

PS - I just saw Lelands is an advertiser here so sorry Leon. But with all the shenanigans going on in this industry it doesn't seem right to let this pass as decent.

Even if they had purchased 60k in insurance from Fed Ex they only cover collectibles up to $1,000 same with UPS. They won''t tell you that while purchasing the insurance though, just when you go to make the claim. It's in the fine print, but they take your money anyway.

[JackW]

My guess is an auction house that has been around as long as Lelands knows fully well the limitations of FedEx insurance on collectables.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Fed Ex website.

For example, FedEx permits a maximum declared value up to $1,000 for the following items:
•Artwork
•Photos
•Glassware
•Jewelry
•Furs
•Precious metals
•Plasma screens
•Antiques
•Stocks, bonds, and cash equivalents
•Collectibles, such as coins or stamps
•Some musical instruments
•Models, such as dollhouses

[sbfinley]

In college I worked part time for a gem and mineral dealer (just over a decade ago) and the going rate of third party insurance for shipments was .75 per $100 through our contract so $600 on $60k doesn’t surprise me.

[Rhotchkiss]

So many worthy charities!

It’s one thing that they charged so much. However, my issue is that they told Steven they were buying insurance, charged him for it, but never bought the insurance. I mean that’s just flat out not right. I would like to hear from Lelands though.

[frankbmd]

Maybe Jillian was just joshing you.

[wondo]

I read Jillian's email to say they purchase insurance for every package they ship with FedEx, not that they purchase the insurance from FedEx. Could be purchasing the insurance from anyone including themselves. Or am I twisting it?

[ullmandds]

Curious why this thread was moved??

[CuriousGeorge]

Me too. There’s Crazy Uncle threads and tons of PWCC so why not this? An AH selling cards is blatantly stealing from their customers. Why is this not relevant? What else are these people doing if they’re looking to steal shipping money?

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Curious why this thread was moved??

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Curious why this thread was moved??

me three

[Peter_Spaeth]

Presented without comment.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presented without comment.

This may actually be the class action suit you were looking for. Every customer defrauded the same way.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Presented without comment.

Thanks for answering the 3 posts above yours so eloquently.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This may actually be the class action suit you were looking for. Every customer defrauded the same way.

Somebody wake up Jake

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This may actually be the class action suit you were looking for. Every customer defrauded the same way.

Does Peter do class action? It’s time someone does something to stop this and I’m just the guy to bankroll it. I haven’t heard another word from Lelands by the way and no response here. This is going to be fun to see how long they have been getting away with this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Does Peter do class action? It’s time someone does something to stop this and I’m just the guy to bankroll it. I haven’t heard another word from Lelands by the way and no response here. This is going to be fun to see how long they have been getting away with this.

I am a class act for sure.

[JackW]

Guys, I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Leon has often said that advertisers get no special treatment here, and he has been true to his word. Just recently Crazy Uncle Auctions was roasted repeatedly on the main board. Did that thread get moved to a less visible area of Net54? No. If advertisers are protected, then that thread would have been moved. I'm sure there's a good reason this thread was moved. If Leon wants to explain why, fine. If not, that's fine too. It's his board and he provides this service for all of us to gather and talk cards with friends. Maybe we should focus on that.

[CuriousGeorge]

Haha! So what do you think about discussing this Peter? Would Lelands insurance company pay out claims? I would imagine Lelands pockets are not very deep to absorb the millions of dollars potentially taken. Or is forcing them into bankruptcy all that can happen?

[CuriousGeorge]

Jack, could you possibly give me a reason then because I can’t think of one?

Originally Posted by JackW

Guys, I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Leon has often said that advertisers get no special treatment here, and he has been true to his word. Just recently Crazy Uncle Auctions was roasted repeatedly on the main board. Did that thread get moved to a less visible area of Net54? No. If advertisers are protected, then that thread would have been moved. I'm sure there's a good reason this thread was moved. If Leon wants to explain why, fine. If not, that's fine too. It's his board and he provides this service for all of us to gather and talk cards with friends. Maybe we should focus on that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Haha! So what do you think about discussing this Peter? Would Lelands insurance company pay out claims? I would imagine Lelands pockets are not very deep to absorb the millions of dollars potentially taken. Or is forcing them into bankruptcy all that can happen?

I have no idea what the limits of their liability insurance coverage are. You would also need to find other examples of bidders who were overcharged relative to their actual shipment and insurance costs.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea what the limits of their liability insurance coverage are. You would also need to find other examples of bidders who were overcharged relative to their actual shipment and insurance costs.

That would be any expensive lot I’m guessing.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JackW

Guys, I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Leon has often said that advertisers get no special treatment here, and he has been true to his word. Just recently Crazy Uncle Auctions was roasted repeatedly on the main board. Did that thread get moved to a less visible area of Net54? No. If advertisers are protected, then that thread would have been moved. I'm sure there's a good reason this thread was moved. If Leon wants to explain why, fine. If not, that's fine too. It's his board and he provides this service for all of us to gather and talk cards with friends. Maybe we should focus on that.

Your thread is complete BS. Leon has called members morons and idiots, threatened banning, and openly admitted advertisers get special treatment. Actually he has even done this all in one thread before when PWCC was being called out.

Saying all that, who cares, it is his forum and he can do whatever he wants and if you don't like it don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That would be any expensive lot I’m guessing.

Perhaps. But I doubt any plaintiff class action lawyer is going to sign up for a contingency fee case without seeing more than one example.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps. But I doubt any plaintiff class action lawyer is going to sign up for a contingency fee case without seeing more than one example.

Pretty sure there won’t be any difficulty finding lawyers on this one.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Does Peter do class action? It’s time someone does something to stop this and I’m just the guy to bankroll it. I haven’t heard another word from Lelands by the way and no response here. This is going to be fun to see how long they have been getting away with this.

I think its shitty this was moved, but its not my site.

Steven, speaking of bankrolling - I am all in for helping to Fund some type of watchdog organization that does the work of BODA (if not BODA) and looks for injustices in the hobby such as what this thread addresses

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

pretty sure there won’t be any difficulty finding lawyers on this one.

rico!!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

rico!!

Goated!

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by JackW

Guys, I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Leon has often said that advertisers get no special treatment here, and he has been true to his word. Just recently Crazy Uncle Auctions was roasted repeatedly on the main board. Did that thread get moved to a less visible area of Net54? No. If advertisers are protected, then that thread would have been moved. I'm sure there's a good reason this thread was moved. If Leon wants to explain why, fine. If not, that's fine too. It's his board and he provides this service for all of us to gather and talk cards with friends. Maybe we should focus on that.

what planet do you live on? advertisers have always received protection here. i don’t blame leon for it because he has to make a living. but please don’t tell us it doesn’t happen.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

what planet do you live on? advertisers have always received protection here. i don’t blame leon for it because he has to make a living. but please don’t tell us it doesn’t happen.

Should advertisers be protected who are blatantly ripping off customers?

[asoriano]

Moved from the main page to the Watercooler section? Seriously?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by asoriano

Moved from the main page to the Watercooler section? Seriously?

+1