The Best Pitcher in Baseball Is?

[gonefishin]

I wanted to post this question in the 1980 and forward section - so here is the question. Whom do you think is the best pitcher that has played a baseball game from 1980 forward? Could it be Maddux? Could it be Glavine? I would like your thoughts. Mine is a current pitcher - none other than Justin Verlander. I obtained his rookie card early on - I'm glad I did. Do you have the rookie card of your pick? If so, please post a picture.

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Off the top of my head, I was thinking Maddux. I feel like I have lots of his rookies somewhere (as they were readily available and mass produced in the heart of the junk wax era). Just don't have one available for a picture right now.

As far as going beyond our gut feelings, here are the WAR stats from Baseball Reference. WAR isn't perfect, but I think it does a pretty good job. According to WAR, Roger Clemens would be the answer to your question for best pitcher since 1980. Maddux and Johnson also highly rated. Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, Grienke, and other currently active pitchers don't show up until number 27 and up.

Here are the top 35 pitchers according to the WAR stat from baseball reference (Rank, Name, (Seasons), WAR, Innings pitched, Righty/Lefty):

Rank Player (yrs, age) WAR for Pitchers IP Throws
1. Cy Young+ (22) 165.6 7356.0 R
2. Walter Johnson+ (21) 152.3 5914.1 R
3. Roger Clemens (24) 138.7 4916.2 R
4. Kid Nichols+ (15) 116.7 5067.1 R
5. Pete Alexander+ (20) 116.2 5190.0 R
6. Lefty Grove+ (17) 113.3 3940.2 L
7. Tom Seaver+ (20) 106.0 4783.0 R
8. Greg Maddux+ (23) 104.8 5008.1 R
9. Randy Johnson+ (22) 103.5 4135.1 L
10. Christy Mathewson+ (17) 100.4 4788.2 R
11. Phil Niekro+ (24) 97.0 5404.0 R
12. Bert Blyleven+ (22) 96.1 4970.0 R
13. Gaylord Perry+ (22) 93.0 5350.0 R
14. Warren Spahn+ (21) 92.5 5243.2 L
15. Tim Keefe+ (14) 89.1 5049.2 R
16. Eddie Plank+ (17) 87.5 4495.2 L
17. Pedro Martinez+ (18) 86.1 2827.1 R
18. John Clarkson+ (12) 85.0 4536.1 R
19. Steve Carlton+ (24) 84.1 5217.2 L
20. Nolan Ryan+ (27) 83.6 5386.0 R
21. Pud Galvin+ (15) 83.3 6003.1 R
22. Robin Roberts+ (19) 83.0 4688.2 R
23. Mike Mussina+ (18) 82.8 3562.2 R
24. Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 82.2 4500.2 R
25. Bob Gibson+ (17) 81.7 3884.1 R
26. Curt Schilling (20) 80.5 3261.0 R
27. Justin Verlander (17, 39) 76.4 3131.0 R
28. Jim McCormick (10) 76.0 4275.2 R
29. Tom Glavine+ (22) 73.9 4413.1 L
30. Old Hoss Radbourn+ (12) 73.2 4527.1 R
31. Clayton Kershaw (15, 34) 71.2 2540.0 L
32. Zack Greinke (19, 38) 70.4 3214.2 R
33. Max Scherzer (15, 37) 69.7 2639.1 R
34. Carl Hubbell+ (16) 68.8 3590.1 L
35. Don Sutton+ (23)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Clemens, no real question leaving aside the PED issue. Then Johnson and Maddux. Pedro isn't too far behind but lacks the career numbers. I can't see anyone else really being in the discussion.

[G1911]

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Tom Seaver
Pedro Martinez


I think it’s a pretty significant gap after that. Kershaw and Verlander being the top active.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1980 forward is the question. So not Seaver?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

1980 forward is the question. So not Seaver?

" Whom do you think is the best pitcher that has played a baseball game from 1980 forward?"

Seaver meets the criteria as stated; the question was phrased as the best pitcher to have pitched a baseball game from 1980 to present; not the entirety of their career being post 1980.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

" Whom do you think is the best pitcher that has played a baseball game from 1980 forward?"

Seaver meets the criteria as stated; the question was phrased as the best pitcher to have pitched a baseball game from 1980 to present; not the entirety of their career being post 1980.

Ah. Well if that's what the OP meant, I might rank Seaver even higher than you do.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ah. Well if that's what the OP meant, I might rank Seaver even higher than you do.

I think Maddux, Randy and Seaver are all very, very similar in overall value. Pedro has the best peak of them all, but too short a career to best them. I think it’s clearly Clemens at the top if we don’t punish for steroids. I think it’s hard to put anyone over him in the post-war period entirely. His career is ridiculous, dominating from age 23 through age 43.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think Maddux, Randy and Seaver are all very, very similar in overall value. Pedro has the best peak of them all, but too short a career to best them. I think it’s clearly Clemens at the top if we don’t punish for steroids. I think it’s hard to put anyone over him in the post-war period entirely. His career is ridiculous, dominating from age 23 through age 43.

He had a few years with the Sox at the end where he had pretty bad nagging injuries too, make those years more like the rest of his career and it's even more absurd. His first game back at Fenway after going to Toronto was priceless. Dan Duquette had justified letting him go by saying he was in the twilight of his career. Roger first drills Mo Vaughn to send a message, thpitches a fine game and walks off the mound glaring up at where Duquette sits. It was awesome. Twilight indeed, he won 4 Cy Youngs after that. The last at age 41 LOL.

[gustomania]

Clemens hands down….and not really all that close with 7 CY awards

….end of discussion

[bnorth]

Roger is easily the correct answer. Also we need more pictures.

[Eric72]

Roger Clemens, by a hair.

Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, and Greg Maddux are in the same league, in my opinion. Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan and Pedro Martinez are in the neighborhood.

[toppcat]

Career WAR is misleading in a way, it's higher if you pitch longer, unless you negative at the end of a career. 7 year peak WAR might be a better stat.

Clemens is out in my book, cheater.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Career WAR is misleading in a way, it's higher if you pitch longer, unless you negative at the end of a career. 7 year peak WAR might be a better stat.

Clemens is out in my book, cheater.

The JAWS metric which is an average of career and peak WAR is good also IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Anyhow, someone mentioned cards. Here are some.

[Daveyc]

Clemens is the correct answer. by a significant measure. He is the greatest pitcher since integration, which I personally consider the greatest of all time because the real old timers did not play against the full measure of competition.

Cy young, Grover Cleveland Alexander and walter johnson etc were all great, but cannot really be compared with post integration pitchers who faced the best of the world.

[Daveyc]

Clemens is the correct answer. by a significant measure. He is the greatest pitcher since integration, which I personally consider the greatest of all time because the real old timers did not play against the full measure of competition.

Cy young, Grover Cleveland Alexander and walter johnson etc were all great, but cannot really be compared with post integration pitchers who faced the best of the world.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Start at 4:11. Four HOURS and eleven minutes that is. I think he was 41.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1eS7462aps

[Carter08]

For primarily post 1980 guys, Clemens first by far. The next few in line are debatable. Can’t argue with Maddux, Pedro, Big Train, Verlander, etc. Mad Max Scherzer even is a delight.

Best short window guy is Doc.

[gonefishin]

I'm sure some one, maybe a lot, will disagree with this:

I wish I would have put a caveat in my post that said, "Not tainted with the steroids issue".

I guess that would put Clemons out of consideration.

Funny no one has mentioned Mariano Rivera - remember him? He was a Yankee also AND a member of the Hall of Fame.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

Funny no one has mentioned Mariano Rivera - remember him? He was a Yankee also AND a member of the Hall of Fame.

I don't think people forget him at all; he just pitched less than 1,300 innings. Hard to compete with Maddux, Johnson, Seaver etc. when they hurled well over triple the innings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don't think people forget him at all; he just pitched less than 1,300 innings. Hard to compete with Maddux, Johnson, Seaver etc. when they hurled well over triple the innings.

The debate about the value of the closer will never be settled, but there is a colorable argument that even the best of them -- Rivera -- is vastly overrated in the court of public opinion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The debate about the value of the closer will never be settled, but there is a colorable argument that even the best of them -- Rivera -- is vastly overrated in the court of public opinion.

That is an argument I personally tend to agree with, but even giving as much possible credit to the role of the closer as possible, heavily weighting specific innings, giving and every single benefit of the doubt to Rivera and then adding some random points to him just because, I still cannot see how one can possibly come to the conclusion that Rivera produced more value than the very best starters of his time.

Removing Clemens is fair game; if you cancel out his steroid years that appear to have started with the Blue Jays as I recall, he's no longer the #1. Slotting Mariano into his place makes no sense when guys who pitched, 4,000, 5,000 innings at a very, very high level are available to choose instead.

[gonefishin]

No way I'm saying Rivera should replace anyone, I'm just saying he shouldn't be forgotten. There have been a lot of great ones that have taken the mound since 1980. When the dust settles and his career comes to an end, I still think Verlander will be ranked among the best of all time.

I also think Randy Johnson should receive extra credit for exploding the sea gull or whatever it was. How many pitchers have done that trick!

Clemons, due to his own actions, has joined the ranks of those that have posted some of the best performances of all time but will never see the Hall of Fame while they are still alive. I wonder how he explained the situation to his son Kacy, who is now of course a major league player. Unfortunate situation for everyone.

[G1911]

Johnson vaporizing the seagull in front of Calvin Murray was a classic.

Clemens election seems almost inevitable at this point to me. With David Ortiz being exempted because people like him, Bonds and Clemens will almost certainly be put in by the committees at some point. I’m agnostic on whether the roiders should get in, but the double standards will be difficult to defend over the years and as there is no process for removal, it will be easier to induct the roiders. Besides, they have to drive revenue and the exclusions will hurt the bottom line. Cutting out half of a generations stars will hurt attendance and induction ceremony profit too much.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Johnson vaporizing the seagull in front of Calvin Murray was a classic.

Clemens election seems almost inevitable at this point to me. With David Ortiz being exempted because people like him, Bonds and Clemens will almost certainly be put in by the committees at some point. I’m agnostic on whether the roiders should get in, but the double standards will be difficult to defend over the years and as there is no process for removal, it will be easier to induct the roiders. Besides, they have to drive revenue and the exclusions will hurt the bottom line. Cutting out half of a generations stars will hurt attendance and induction ceremony profit too much.

The way it will end up, IMO, is Clemens Bonds and likely McGwire eventually will get in but Sosa and Palmeiro, never. Not sure that is fair on the numbers.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The way it will end up, IMO, is Clemens Bonds and likely McGwire eventually will get in but Sosa and Palmeiro, never. Not sure that is fair on the numbers.

I suspect this is correct. Perhaps I am a bit more cynical but after Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, I think it will come down to a popularity contest of who will drive revenue. Sosa has a chance, Palmeiro unlikely though he is obviously deserving (if roiders are let in).

I’m more okay with giving a pass to these guys than to the guys who got busted long after the rule was established. McGwire I find especially sympathetic; he was done around the time it became a controversy and my understanding is he didn’t really actually break any rule. He didn’t see to have any idea when he casually admitted to it that it was going to spark such a huge controversy and changes to the game. Bonds and Clemens started using before the rules but probably kept using as the controversy gained steam and it became a “don’t do that”.

[gonefishin]

Verlander is still burning it up - making a run again for the Cy Young this year. As of today, lowest ERA @ 1.87 (1st), tie for most wins (16), .85 WHIP (1st)

[G1911]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

Verlander is still burning it up - making a run again for the Cy Young this year. As of today, lowest ERA @ 1.87 (1st), tie for most wins (16), .85 WHIP (1st)

Age 39 and coming off an injury, and he’s the best pitcher in the league again.

[gonefishin]

Originally Posted by G1911

Age 39 and coming off an injury, and he’s the best pitcher in the league again.

He is, but I get a little concerned about his body holding up. Not everyone can be like Nolan Ryan!