T207 Scarcity Question

[quinnsryche]

Is there any info available that ranks the T207 set by scarcity? Kind of like the list for the Sporting Life set on Old Cardboard where they are listed numerically as to how hard or easy they are to find. Any help would be most appreciated.

[Zach Wheat]

Tony,

If you give me your email, I will send you some information which will answer your question. Tim Newcomb wrote articles on the T207 set in VCBC #37 & 38 (Feb 2004) where he covers both back scarcity and player scarcity. Both would be good reference sources. I picked up my copies of this article on eBay. You should be able to find both issues for about $10 each. Here is an eBay link to one seller (not me):

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Classic-...item35a545ae51

He should have both issues.

Zach Wheat

[timn1]

Tony,

Mr. Wheat is right on the money. My article from VCBC addresses your question pretty thoroughly. I think VCBC is defunct, but if you can't find a copy on ebay, I may have a xerox I can send you, although I'm not sure.

Tim

[Jim VB]

I have a complete run of VCBC in the closet. If you can't find it somewhere else, let me know and I'll scan you a copy (with the author's permission, of course.)

[caramelcard]

People, remember when you read the list in Tim's article.

Donlin is only at the top cuz it's alphabetical. So, stop paying so much for it. It's not the toughest card in the set! They're all tough!

[frohme]

Well put, Rob!

Looking past Donlin is great - as long as everyone remembers to skip Donnelly, too!

"... these are not the cards you're looking for ..."

Mike

[JasonL]

You know, it is the T207 that provided my first meaningful "Welcome to Pre-war" moment...
I had embarked upon the much-more-daunting-than-I-first-suspected task of collecting pre-war Chicago Cubs team sets. Much time and money later, I am done with T200, T201, T205, and T206. I'm doing great. Then I run up into the T207s and I meet one tough dude for my budget...Mr. Ward Miller. Seems as though Mr. Miller is not just a tough card amongst the Cubs, but one mean guy for the entire set.

Welcome to Prewar, Jason. And as such, I am introduced to the difficult concept of an incomplete complete set. FUN!

[caramelcard]

Pretty cool that Donnelly is right at the top toughies in the population study.

If Mike still needs just that one after going through a huge amount of T207s it's gotta be one of the toughest.

You're the man Tim!

[quinnsryche]

Thanks to Tim for writing the article and Mike for faxing it to me. As usual, the guys on this board are the most generous anywhere with their time and talents. Much thanks to all!

[sox1903wschamp]

I have to admit, despite some negative hobby publicity on this set (ugly cards, no stars etc), I love this set. And the article written by Tim is one of the best detailed written articles on a set that I have read in all my years in the hobby. I always refer to it.

And the funny thing about this set is there seems to be that one elusive almost impossible card of some obscure player that prevents finishing a set or subset. For Jason and Mike there is the Miller and Donnelly. My demon is the Bushelman card preventing me from the Red Sox team set. One of these days

[frohme]

Hi Mike,

Argh! Bushelman - one of T207's "killer B's" . If it wasn't for the generosity of various board members ... notably Rob A (Bushelman), Rob D (Birmingham), Matt W (Butcher), Paul S for numerous cards (including Block and Blanding) and many others, I'd be right there with you.

I also read both Tim and Bob's VCBC articles (many thanks, guys) I don't know how many times as I decided to start the set. Incredibly valuable info! I don't recall who said it but someone said "... when you have the opportunity to hold a high grade T207 it has a way of reaching out and grabbing you... ". All too true.

Good luck with your search!
--
Mike

[eliotdeutsch]

Bumping an old thread. Does anyone have this scarcity list?

[buymycards]

Google T207 scarcity list and you will come up with many results.

[familytoad]

We are still begging for a Kraken/Monster version of the Brownies...

[Brian Van Horn]

A Net54 discussion from December 2011:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=145154

[RCMcKenzie]

I would check the pop reports to get a good idea...Adams, Bauman, Kuhn, Mogridge, etc...

Here's Donnelly, mentioned above as a tougher one...

[Brian Van Horn]

.

[dabbuu]

I agree and would say to check the pop reports.

Also after collecting the set for years I think those old lists could use updating. It took me years to find a Bauman, tough tough card.

[deadballera]

I have a T207 with an upside down back.....I need to scan that one

[Bridwell]

There are a wide range of populations in the T207 set. I've been collecting them for 15 years and have hundreds. Of the 150 Recruit back "commons", even among those there is a wide range of scarcity. PSA and SGC pop reports will tell the tale. Some cards have graded pops of 150 while others less than 50. The non-Recruit backs are even tougher to find.

Since Tim's excellent article in 2004, we have even more data now because of SGC and PSA. Some pops are actually overstated because of collectors moving SGC cards to PSA and vice versa. I've been collecting PSA cards and have bought many SGC, cracked them, and resubmitted to PSA.

Boston Red Sox players seem to command a premium because of their amazing season in 1912. I suspect that there are ungraded Red Sox cards hiding in private collections. With T207, another issue is set collectors. There may be 40-50 sets or near sets out there, and the total pop of some cards is perhaps only around 50. So it is difficult to start a set and be able to complete it in decent condition.

To collect T207, you have to like a challenge!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

There are a wide range of populations in the T207 set. I've been collecting them for 15 years and have hundreds. Of the 150 Recruit back "commons", even among those there is a wide range of scarcity. PSA and SGC pop reports will tell the tale. Some cards have graded pops of 150 while others less than 50. The non-Recruit backs are even tougher to find.

Since Tim's excellent article in 2004, we have even more data now because of SGC and PSA. Some pops are actually overstated because of collectors moving SGC cards to PSA and vice versa. I've been collecting PSA cards and have bought many SGC, cracked them, and resubmitted to PSA.

Boston Red Sox players seem to command a premium because of their amazing season in 1912. I suspect that there are ungraded Red Sox cards hiding in private collections. With T207, another issue is set collectors. There may be 40-50 sets or near sets out there, and the total pop of some cards is perhaps only around 50. So it is difficult to start a set and be able to complete it in decent condition.

To collect T207, you have to like a challenge!

Collectors who collect the set know how tough it is to complete.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Hell even getting a type card of each back is no small feat

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Hell even getting a type card of each back is no small feat

Especially if you want to include a Red Cross back in the back run. I still haven't seen one in person.

[topcat61]

Population reports from grading companies arent too reliable; too many collectors pop cards out for better grades. I would instead look on ebay and other auction sites for a better feel fro what's rare. I also think that if you sit down for a few months on ebay and catalog what T207's you see, you'll have a better understand of a) what they're selling for and b) what cards are being seen the most or least.

[dabbuu]

I would love to hear what other cards people had a tough time getting. For me the toughest cards were:

Bauman by far
Morgrige
Cunningham
Hoff
Houser
Hyatt
Butcher
Livingston Large C
Donlin
C D Thomas
Rath
White
Scott
Woodburn
Adams
Blanding
McCarthy
Pelty

Any others?

[Cozumeleno]

Dabbuu - we've traded and talked, and our lists are pretty similar. From personal experience, my toughest were probably Bauman, Mogridge, Cunningham, Ragan, Hoff, Donlin, Kuhn, and Blanding. I still need Miller, Lowdermilk, and Lewis but I've seen those for sale more frequently than the others I mentioned.

I lucked into some very tough ones. A few years ago, I bought a Houser that had been sitting on eBay for months. It had a punch hole and sold for something like $40. Since then, I've barely seen the card. So it's very tough but just wasn't one of my hardest ones. Same with Saier, which I got pretty early but also seems to show up infrequently.

I honestly think there are many that you can lump together. I don't know that, say, Cunningham is any tougher than Adams. Or Woodburn vs. White. Or Ryan vs. McCarthy. Or ... you get the idea. To some degree, I think it's splitting hairs.

Some are definitely harder than others. For my money, Donlin is way up there. But I personally think there's Lewis No Emblem that's clearly ahead and then a bunch of other contenders. It's just tough to say which of those, say, ten contenders, if any, are definitely harder to find than the others.

[Bridwell]

A Bushelman T207 SGC 50 sold today on Ebay for $797. It would get a MC qualifier from PSA, so not a high grade card by any means. I'd have to add Bushelman to those lists you've made of the tough ones.

[brianp-beme]

For the most part I have stuck with collecting only the more readily available T207 cards, mainly due to the cost. The tougher 'Broadleaf' cards have always had a different look to me, which I think is partly due to differences in the artwork, and partly due to the fact that I just don't see them as often.

I have relatively few of the tough cards, but feel fortunate to have this Cycle back (my only one) of Hoff, and for me it has the bonus of having Buck Barker writing on the back. And it is a cool portrait image of the fellow who lived to be 107.

Brian

[Leon]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

For the most part I have stuck with collecting only the more readily available T207 cards, mainly due to the cost. The tougher 'Broadleaf' cards have always had a different look to me, which I think is partly due to differences in the artwork, and partly due to the fact that I just don't see them as often.

I have relatively few of the tough cards, but feel fortunate to have this Cycle back (my only one) of Hoff, and for me it has the bonus of having Buck Barker writing on the back. And it is a cool portrait image of the fellow who lived to be 107.

Brian

Love Buck's writing on cards....

[Cozumeleno]

Ron - I'd certainly agree that Bushelman is right up there with many of those other tougher ones mentioned.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Ron - I'd certainly agree that Bushelman is right up there with many of those other tougher ones mentioned.

+1
I rarely see him for sale.
And some random T207s from the last collection, for the heck of it.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

For the most part I have stuck with collecting only the more readily available T207 cards, mainly due to the cost. The tougher 'Broadleaf' cards have always had a different look to me, which I think is partly due to differences in the artwork, and partly due to the fact that I just don't see them as often.

I have relatively few of the tough cards, but feel fortunate to have this Cycle back (my only one) of Hoff, and for me it has the bonus of having Buck Barker writing on the back. And it is a cool portrait image of the fellow who lived to be 107.

Brian

That is one hell of a card! I recognized the handwriting right away as Buck's. It's a card of a storied player owned by a hobby pioneer, just fantastic. It's too bad the grading companies wont grade it.

[Cozumeleno]

Bresnahan's making me dizzy, Leon --

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Bresnahan's making me dizzy, Leon --

LOL....such as after several strong cocktails.

[sb1]

In the old days, it was Bauman, Donlin and Donnelly. Which i think would still hold pretty close today. Also Rath, Rasmussen and Saier were next in line. Lewis was so hard it didn't factor, while Lowdermilk was touted, one always seemed to pop up for sale.

Glad I still kept the set.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by topcat61

That is one hell of a card! I recognized the handwriting right away as Buck's. It's a card of a storied player owned by a hobby pioneer, just fantastic. It's too bad the grading companies wont grade it.

Thanks, was definitely pleased with the combo, because I never thought I would have a T207 Cycle back, or ever get the Hoff. To have Buck's writing on the back makes it a killer card in my eyes too.

I believe that the grading companies would encapsulate it, perhaps as authentic, or with a qualifier, just don't think they would label it with a 'Buck Barker' annotation. I don't plan on ever letting their plasticky fingers get near it.

Brian

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks, was definitely pleased with the combo, because I never thought I would have a T207 Cycle back, or ever get the Hoff. To have Buck's writing on the back makes it a killer card in my eyes too.

I believe that the grading companies would encapsulate it, perhaps as authentic, or with a qualifier, just don't think they would label it with a 'Buck Barker' annotation. I don't plan on ever letting their plasticky fingers get near it.

Brian

I own one of Barker's cards too -his handwriting and style is unmistakable -and had some pretty odd experiences with the grading company (SGC) but they wont identify them as being his. What I was told by the grader was that they don't do Graphology (the analysis of the physical characteristics and patterns of handwriting), which is kind of a head scratcher.

Honestly, I can only speak for myself when it comes to grading -I think its a business and a fraud and I wouldn't trust that that a card like that would be safe. There are too many "what ifs". Anyway, it's an awesome card, thanks for sharing.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks, was definitely pleased with the combo, because I never thought I would have a T207 Cycle back, or ever get the Hoff. To have Buck's writing on the back makes it a killer card in my eyes too.

I believe that the grading companies would encapsulate it, perhaps as authentic, or with a qualifier, just don't think they would label it with a 'Buck Barker' annotation. I don't plan on ever letting their plasticky fingers get near it.

Brian

Cool card, Brian!

FWIW, I tried to get one (T207 Hageman) encapsulated w/the 'Buck Barker' annotation. They saw fit to leave all the letters out except for a capital "A".