PSA Confidence Buying?

[mferronibc]

Ok I have been reading as much as I can the last few weeks about the PSA/PWCC altering scandal and unfortunately I seemingly started back in the hobby at a really bad time (although I’m sure fraud may not be any more widespread now than 10 years ago, just more publicized now as big companies got greedier and greedier). I’d say about 80% of my excitement getting back into vintage cards, mainly to try and build a cool collection for my newborn son that’ll spark his interest someday as a shared hobby, has been tempered.

I’m wondering what the overall consensus is continuing to buy graded cards. Have people stopped completely and are waiting for the dust to settle or proceeding with caution. I’m not a big fan of the usual response - just buy non-graded vintage. For me I have zero confidence in one picture on EBay telling the full story about the true condition of a card and maybe I’m part of the problem, but yea I feel warm and fuzzy about a grade knowing what I’m getting (even though I know how subjective grade can be and taking the risk the card may be altered in the first place).

My question is does anyone feel any more confident buying cards in older PSA slabs then the new lighthouse ones (or whatever they’re called). Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me that so many true high grade cards were just sitting around in someone’s collection until this year when they decided to get them graded. Much more likely they were already graded low, broken out, altered and resubmitted. I mean how many preserved collections are truly being newly discovered in attics and yard sales anymore? Again, not that fraud didn’t exist 10 years ago but all things being equal would you feel more confident buying a higher grade card in an older slab (maybe tampered) than a new one (most likely tampered)? Is this at all a new driving force on auction prices?

Just a thought. I really don’t want to stop collecting as I’ve had so much fun the last few months getting back into it and just looking for any type of strategy to mitigate the best I can fraud in the hobby.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I think the best advice is:

Find people you trust.

Whether it's on Ebay, at shows, a local card shop, here on the board, or an auction house. There are sellers on ebay who I trust COMPLETELY to describe their cards accurately, raw or graded. There are guys in all the different areas of the hobby mentioned above that I would 100% do business with probably just on a description of what I was getting, without a picture at all. There are enough good guys in the hobby that if people made a real commitment to dealing with them exclusively it might make it harder to be one of the bad guys. Of course as we've seen sometimes the good guys are only good guys until they get caught, but I think if you do you homework and talk to a lot of people (this thread is a great idea) you can find a way forward with your hobby goals while still feeling secure in your purchases.

[Just.Rachel]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think the best advice is:

Find people you trust.

Whether it's on Ebay, at shows, a local card shop, here on the board, or an auction house. There are sellers on ebay who I trust COMPLETELY to describe their cards accurately, raw or graded. There are guys in all the different areas of the hobby mentioned above that I would 100% do business with probably just on a description of what I was getting, without a picture at all. There are enough good guys in the hobby that if people made a real commitment to dealing with them exclusively it might make it harder to be one of the bad guys. Of course as we've seen sometimes the good guys are only good guys until they get caught, but I think if you do you homework and talk to a lot of people (this thread is a great idea) you can find a way forward with your hobby goals while still feeling secure in your purchases.

This.

As for the older or newer slab question, they're both equally suspect in my opinion. It may be true (or may not be, idk) that older slabs have less of a likelihood to contain an altered card, but the likelihood of both older and newer is great enough to treat them both with heightened caution and scrutiny.

I can think of no better defense than dealing with someone you trust.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[mferronibc]

Thanks for the input, Scott. I’m sure this forum is not meant to specifically “out” people but in general do you feel most of the other larger consignment shops fall under the same category as PWCC or are there specific ones you feel are more reputable?

Any advice to a fairly newbie how to identify and built those good relationships or at least warning signs of the bad players that should be an immediate red flag?

Thanks

[invest]

Hi Matt,

I am at a similar inflection point as you. I only buy graded cards since I too like to know the card is authentic. I am not skilled enough to hold a raw card and know for sure its real. So with everything that has been brought to light here is what I am doing.

I am being very selective now and only looking to complete my Top 20 cards list (I only need 2 more cards) I was going to do a 1957 FB set and others, but I have soured recently on that idea with everything going on. My set building days are probably behind me.

After reading everything, I don't believe it makes any difference in older labels or newer labels, fraud is everywhere. If and when I find my two cards(graded) I will post pictures on all the forums I belong to and if someone finds evidence (that I missed in my due diligence) they have been altered I will return them and try again. No other choice from my perspective. I love collecting cards and although the scandal has dampened that, it won't stop me from collecting and enjoying looking at my cards and others cards.

Troy

[swarmee]

Many of the outed cards were graded 5-6 years ago (Cert numbers around 20M) and we know that PSA has been allowing trimmers and alterers like Gary Moser to submit cards under their own names for at least 15 years.

I have already mailed 500 cards to sell and am sending more soon. Holding onto my two registry sets that I was the first one to complete, but still may sell them in the future.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

I’m wondering what the overall consensus is continuing to buy graded cards. Have people stopped completely and are waiting for the dust to settle or proceeding with caution.

Yep.

Originally Posted by mferronibc

My question is does anyone feel any more confident buying cards in older PSA slabs then the new lighthouse ones (or whatever they’re called).

I feel more confident purchasing PSA graded cards in older holders.

Now some guys have been doctoring cards for a long time and just because you buy an old slab doesn't mean the card hasn't been doctored, however, I just feel there are more card doctors now compared to back then. So recently graded waterfront cards have a higher chance of being doctored compared to the ones that were graded in the past.

Another reason why a card today has a higher chance of being doctored is value. Remember, 10 - 15 years ago many of these cards were worth a lot less. Back then, you could buy a beautiful well-centered PSA 6 Hank Aaron rookie for around $600 USD. I just recently paid $4,000 USD for mine.

And finally, a card today has a higher chance of being trimmed because of the centering craze (that only seems to be getting worse every year). Because collectors today pay large sums of money for well-centered cards, card trimmers are, well, giving them just that.

[mferronibc]

Thanks Troy - nice to know there are other people in the same boat as me.

John - does that mean you’re selling off your whole collection then in response to all of this? Can I ask Is that because your enjoyment of collecting has been so impacted by the assumption of widespread fraud or is it more selling off now while prices are still relatively unimpacted but may bottom out in the coming years? I guess the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Sorry, but buying from trusted sellers is not the answer. Cards are bought, sold and traded every day. You don't think some of these altered cards unknowingly ended up in the hands of trusted sellers? Sure they did...and will probably continue to do so. Trust has nothing to do with it.

Here's the best advice and you can take it or leave it. Educate yourself! Learn what to look for - trimming, re-coloring, added paper, etc. Don't rely on some TPG or "trusted seller" to do it for you. If you can learn that, you're way ahead of the graders and most trusted sellers.

[mferronibc]

Yea I had the same thought about cards turning over so often and ending up in the hands of good people who resell.

But does that mean you never buy online? How can you really evaluate for yourself trimming, coloring, etc from an eBay pic or 2? And how do you even know the actual pic isn’t altered to make the card look better? I swear I’ve bought a few that when I receive them look quite worse off than the pics I scoured on EBay. I unfortunately live in a small Midwest town so don’t really have access to any card stores or shows to see in person and eval for myself even if I trained myself better what to look for.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

But does that mean you never buy online? How can you really evaluate for yourself trimming, coloring, etc from an eBay pic or 2?

But that doesn't matter. So you buy an altered card online? As long as you can identify it once you have the card in hand, then you simply return it. It costs you a little of your time and it's an inconvenience, but it doesn't cost you any money.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Thanks for the input, Scott. I’m sure this forum is not meant to specifically “out” people but in general do you feel most of the other larger consignment shops fall under the same category as PWCC or are there specific ones you feel are more reputable?

Any advice to a fairly newbie how to identify and built those good relationships or at least warning signs of the bad players that should be an immediate red flag?

Thanks

I think if you read through threads on here you will get an idea of who the board feels is reputable fairly quickly. A name that comes up a lot (and who I deal with) for ebay sales of raw cards is Greg Morris. I also would never hesitate to buy from board member buythatcard. There are plenty more but those two can certainly fill a lot of needs between them.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sorry, but buying from trusted sellers is not the answer. Cards are bought, sold and traded every day. You don't think some of these altered cards unknowingly ended up in the hands of trusted sellers? Sure they did...and will probably continue to do so. Trust has nothing to do with it.

Here's the best advice and you can take it or leave it. Educate yourself! Learn what to look for - trimming, re-coloring, added paper, etc. Don't rely on some TPG or "trusted seller" to do it for you. If you can learn that, you're way ahead of the graders and most trusted sellers.

I understand your point and don't actually disagree with you but I would like to point out that often a trusted seller will have identified problems and weeded them out before putting an item up for sale. I know personally I reject tons of recolored 1971's for instance, along with trimmed cards. Have I missed some? Most likely, but that's where personal knowledge can come in. But when he's asking about buying cards he can't hold in hand before purchasing trust is the most important first step he can take. At least if a mistake is made that personal knowledge catches, a trusted seller will likely make good without the necessity of law enforcement getting involved!

[Exhibitman]

Didn't buy a single PSA graded card at the NSCC and loved it. Evaluating my own cards is such a pleasure. I actually replaced quite a few slabbed cards with raw and will be selling those.

[mferronibc]

Very valid point about returning an Ebay card if not happy. Are there any good archived threads or other sites with examples people have posted identifying doctored cards so I can start to get a sense of what to look for evaluating my own?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Yep.



I feel more confident purchasing PSA graded cards in older holders.

Now some guys have been doctoring cards for a long time and just because you buy an old slab doesn't mean the card hasn't been doctored, however, I just feel there are more card doctors now compared to back then. So recently graded waterfront cards have a higher chance of being doctored compared to the ones that were graded in the past.

Another reason why a card today has a higher chance of being doctored is value. Remember, 10 - 15 years ago many of these cards were worth a lot less. Back then, you could buy a beautiful well-centered PSA 6 Hank Aaron rookie for around $600 USD. I just recently paid $4,000 USD for mine.

And finally, a card today has a higher chance of being trimmed because of the centering craze (that only seems to be getting worse every year). Because collectors today pay large sums of money for well-centered cards, card trimmers are, well, giving them just that.

I think in recent years PSA has been in more of a hurry too. I have a feeling, hope I'm wrong, that large modern subs just move through at the speed of an express train and nobody is even checking for trimming. Some of the modern stuff outed on BO is incredible.

[egbeachley]

Good luck on sharing the hobby with your son and hope it works. Everything I did failed and I ended up being a 50-year-old Pokemon expert instead.

[Anish]

Buying older slabs is TERRIBLE advice.

Just as many trimmed cards exist in old holders (and grading standards were looser then). It’s just easier to locate recent subs from trimmers.

The key is to do your OWN research. TPG’s are completely inpet - routinely slabbing altered and even counterfeit cards. But even a broken clock is right twice a day, as they say.

Research the cards/sets you care about (look at commons from the set, ask about provenance, and educate yourself on card doctoring).

Do that and you’ll already have more knowledge than the person who looked at the card for a minute.

[mq711]

The advantage of buying cards in older holders is some of the doctoring/ restoration will start to show over time. “Spooned” wrinkles, pressed corners, etc. will start to reveal their original damage. I realize the TPGers have altered their standards but I think one of the main reasons we see so many overgraded cards in old holders is the cards are returning to their true condition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mq711

The advantage of buying cards in older holders is some of the doctoring/ restoration will start to show over time. “Spooned” wrinkles, pressed corners, etc. will start to reveal their original damage. I realize the TPGers have altered their standards but I think one of the main reasons we see so many overgraded cards in old holders is the cards are returning to their true condition.

I think they had more realistic standards back then. More in line with old school grading. Not grading based on the prevalence of amped up doctored cards where a microspeck on a corner gets you a 7.

[bosoxphan]

Zero confidence, especially now that the FBIs involved. I don’t want to be the one without a chair if the music stops playing.

[Johnny630]

I have No Confidence in Any PSA Graded Card Unless I submitted the card myself or know the complete history of the card and its owner. Will never buy a PSA Graded card from any auction houses or eBay without having he card in my had.

I’ve bought all my high end amazing stuff from one gentlemen whom is a collector or has purchased and graded himself from virgin raw deals.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I have No Confidence in Any PSA Graded Card Unless I submitted the card myself or know the complete history of the card and its owner. Will never buy a PSA Graded card from any auction houses or eBay without having he card in my had.

I’ve bought all my high end amazing stuff from one gentlemen whom is a collector or has purchased and graded himself from virgin raw deals.

Yeah John when I first got back into collecting in the early to mid 90s I was plugged in to a guy who had access to those type of deals, there were lots of them back in the day, just about all the cards were good, they just had a certain look to them and I'm sure you know what I mean.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah John when I first got back into collecting in the early to mid 90s I was plugged in to a guy who had access to those type of deals, there were lots of them back in the day, just about all the cards were good, they just had a certain look to them and I'm sure you know what I mean.

Yes sir I do ! It’s a beautiful thing 😊. I was recently able to purchase a High End Raw Virgin Set from my best friend who bought the run from the original owner. They were purchased by the original owner in 1965 or 66 from the card collectors company or another one of the guys putting sets together for sale strait from vending during that time. The set was untouched since then. When my friend opened the box the cards were sticking together like bricks. I’m lucky to have a great friend who let me purchase the set as is :-).

[hammer]

Check out the first card ever Graded by PSA It was the PSA 8 Wagner. That speaks volumes, buy the book called the Card read it Then run.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Good luck on sharing the hobby with your son and hope it works. Everything I did failed and I ended up being a 50-year-old Pokemon expert instead.

Classic!

[MULLINS5]

I've been selling everything and going back to raw after about 20 years of PSA Platinum Memberships and subbing thousands of cards.

So far it's been FUN. No worries about crazy premiums. I also feel that I'm more educated now to spot problems with cards than I was 20 years ago.

I have a registry set I'm thinking of cracking out and displaying in a binder instead of slabbed and in a box. I'm about 25% into a ~400 card set and can't see myself mailing the rest to PSA. I do, unfortunately, have a sub there that I sent in before the sky fell.

[Nick55]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think they had more realistic standards back then. More in line with old school grading. Not grading based on the prevalence of amped up doctored cards where a microspeck on a corner gets you a 7.

The "microspecking" of self-submitted cards is the primary reason I sold off two complete registry sets this past Spring and retired two others that were about 25 percent complete. I honestly thought those would be with me for life.

I stopped buying graded cards altogether in May, when all of this started coming to the surface. Since then, I've spent close to $1K, all on ungraded cards and most being under $25 apiece. I don't need a professional grader to help me navigate those safer waters.

Am I having more "fun" now? No, but it's about the same "fun" as before, except that the difference is nearly all of the frustration and anxiety associated with expensive graded cards has gone away. If a VG raw card worth $3 turns out to be trimmed, so what. I can just buy another one at that price.

Bottom line: collectors either quit or adapt. I've chosen to adapt. I can't imagine myself buying a graded card again until there is a meaningful change in management starting at the top. An apology would help as well. I will allow my membership to expire in the meantime.

[steve B]

What I'd recommend for someone who wants a collection of "cool" cards to share with a kid is to focus less on the condition and more on what makes the card cool.

Usually I say to start with a stack of ungraded commons so you can get an idea of what they should be like, but for some sets that's just not really doable anymore.

Internet purchases can be tougher, even the difference in scanner settings can make something look better or worse. I'm pretty confident in spotting stuff, so if the price was right I'd even buy from a bad cellphone picture. (Like one of my George C Millers... it's pretty beat like the others, but was listed as "old baseball card" with a slightly blurry small picture. ) But to me what makes it cool is that it's one of my favorite sets, and not an easy one to find cards from.

One of my friends asked why I collected cards, and I showed him one card from each decade from 1880's up to the 1990's and explained how the card as a promotional item reflected the country at the time. That might not work for a kid, but showing a card of an old time ball player and telling about him and what he did probably would. My daughters are 7 and 9 now, and I've done that a few times. Not a lot of interest yet, although the older one seems to like stamps, which I also collect. And of course pokemon and magic cards.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Nick55

The "microspecking" of self-submitted cards is the primary reason I sold off two complete registry sets this past Spring and retired two others that were about 25 percent complete. I honestly thought those would be with me for life.

I stopped buying graded cards altogether in May, when all of this started coming to the surface. Since then, I've spent close to $1K, all on ungraded cards and most being under $25 apiece. I don't need a professional grader to help me navigate those safer waters.

Am I having more "fun" now? No, but it's about the same "fun" as before, except that the difference is nearly all of the frustration and anxiety associated with expensive graded cards has gone away. If a VG raw card worth $3 turns out to be trimmed, so what. I can just buy another one at that price.

Bottom line: collectors either quit or adapt. I've chosen to adapt. I can't imagine myself buying a graded card again until there is a meaningful change in management starting at the top. An apology would help as well. I will allow my membership to expire in the meantime.

good strategy. I can't SEE feeding such a fraudulent hobby any longer, my eyes are hurtin

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I've been selling everything and going back to raw after about 20 years of PSA Platinum Memberships and subbing thousands of cards.

So far it's been FUN. No worries about crazy premiums. I also feel that I'm more educated now to spot problems with cards than I was 20 years ago.

I have a registry set I'm thinking of cracking out and displaying in a binder instead of slabbed and in a box. I'm about 25% into a ~400 card set and can't see myself mailing the rest to PSA. I do, unfortunately, have a sub there that I sent in before the sky fell.

Great idea? kinda hard to look at the cards in those fake slabs, huh.