Article on card restoration

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Posted By: PASJD

I mentioned this at the end of the thread on the allegedly restored but slabbed Cobb, and for those interested in reading a 1996 article on restoration that may or may not be of concern today (although I would guess techniques if anything have improved with technology, not the reverse), I have attempted to upload it in pdf format to the following URL from which hopefully you can download it:
members.aol.com/pspa123/articles/restoration
I post this for informational purposes only and make no judgments about the extent to which altered cards are being slabbed by the grading services.

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Posted By: Max Weder

I tried to save and open the page as an .htm document, but it didn't work. Is the url http://www.members.aol.com/pspa123/articles/restoration correct, or am I just missing something?

Thanks,

Max
(who shamefully admits to getting some of his book dust jackets restored...)

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Posted By: PASJD

You have the URL correct. It may be that a pdf file just won't work in this manner. If that is the case, I am happy to email it to people, just send me a request at spaeth@ix.netcom.com, but do me a favor and don't reply to the message containing the file because I only have a modem and it is a large file.

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Posted By: ScottM

Just sent you an email...

I'd be interested in seeing the article and can host it on my website and post a link for those which have adobe acrobat reader installed to view it so you don't have to repeatedly sent out emails...

Email me when you get a chance,

Scott Mosley

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Posted By: Scott M

Thanks to Peter for forwarding the article.

I've hosted it on my website at the following link:

[link removed]

Its over 2 meg so give it a little bit to download.

Note: Requires that you have adobe acrobat reader installed to be able to read the file.

Scott

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Posted By: PASJD

I apologize for my technological ineptitude and appreciate your stepping up so that people can read the article if they are interested.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

big nail hole-- someone posted one in a type card thread--and don't care for the restored ones.

I remember thinking that when the article first came out--9 years ago.

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Posted By: andy becker

what issue of vcbc did this article come from??

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

It was in issue #7, the only one that has gone out of print.

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Posted By: PASJD

Bill why if you know is the issue out of print? Do you simply mean they ran out of copies because so many people ordered one, or something else? Thanks.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

vcbc.com has the info. I don't know why #7 went out of print... it's become the t206 Wagner of an erratically published magazine run.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I'll gladly sell my VCBC Issue #7 for $60,000!

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Posted By: andy becker

i've actually wanted to read this for quite some time....
the reason #7 is the ONLY issue out of print is because one of the grading companies bought out ALL the remaining printed copies. they did not buy the rights from panda to reprint, only the printed copies. i wish panda would go back to press. vcbc has the entire run (1-30 something)for sale for about $150...missing issue #7.

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Posted By: Gary B.

Did I take crazy pills, or are these cards, regardless of how artfully they've been restored, just a sham?

If I buy a card that's a PSA-8, I want to buy it because someone had the good sense to take care of that card for decades to keep it in that kind of condition, not because someone spent 50 hours fixing a card that would have only graded a PSA 4 or 5 previously.

I don't understand this guy's justifications at all. Restoring an automobile is one thing, as people traditionally get faulty parts replaced, touch up paint jobs, replace tires, etc. - it's just part of how those particular things work, but I thought almost everyone would want to have a baseball card in it's original state, and that restoration actually detracted significantly from the value.

Now, if a collector decides to have their cards professionaly restored for their own esthetics without the intention of ever selling the cards, or only with full disclosure of work done, that's one thing, but to actually advertise that restoring cards will assist in getting a higher grade from a grading company, actually encouraging people to have their cards altered so they can make more money off of them - if that's not illegal, shouldn't it be?

He said in this article that he had restored thousands of cards, and this was 8 years ago. It's truly frightening to imagine how many cards are out there right now that have been restored by this one person alone, much less by all the people performing these "services."

This makes me want to re-double my efforts now in buying cards only from the very best legitimate dealers, especially when I graduate to buying more higher-end cards. This is almost worse than scammers on ebay selling fake cards. Or am I just totally wacko?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

put the wood to PSA, big time. The article was called "Smoke detectors without batteries" and was a great example of Dennis Purdy's no-holds-barred approach to writing about the seamier side of the hobby.

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Posted By: andy becker

i would love to read "smoke detectors without batteries". anybody willing to email or snail mail a copy??
i guess psa bought the rest of issue #7 (as i had suspected)

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Posted By: Glen V

Maybe someone could post the "smoke detectors without batteries" to a web site?

I heard rumors that issue #7 either offended potential advertisers or there were threats of legal action against VCBC, so the remaining issues were pulled. It seems that if someone was buying all the magazines, you'd keep making more.

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Posted By: hankron

There are coyright laws, you know. You can't just be scanning articles and posting them on web sites. The rights holder (author? publisher?) might be happy for the article to be reprinted, but you have to ask.

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Posted By: andy becker

i don't want to break any laws, i'd like a copy for myself. email or snail mail. please email if you'd be willing to help. i (of course) would pay for any expenses.

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Posted By: andy becker

glen, i don't think dennis pudry is afraid of any legal actions stemming from his previous pulication. i do know there are costs associated with small print runs of pulications. all psa did was buy ALL the printed mags, they do not hold the rights to the article. there would have to be an outpouring of customers to get an out of date publication reprinted. just my opinion.

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Posted By: Glen V

David, good point - sorry everyone, didn't mean to ask someone to break the law.

Andy, thanks for the facts, I shouldn't have been passing on 3rd hand info I wasn't sure of.

Gary, don't have answers to your questions, but will give you some more stuff to ponder. I'm sure plenty of us have cards that have had writing erased, paper removed from the backs, or creases pressed out. When does it go to far? If a conservator can remove writing without adding to the card, is that wrong? And how do we know which cards have been restored - have that techniques become so advanced that we can't detect restoration work? Who's to say the best dealers know if a card has had work done to it. If a card is graded, do they check it out like they would if it were raw? If that article is correct, there are a lot of graded cards that have been "fixed" - how many of them have board members spotted?

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Posted By: dennis

there was an add in a baseball pub. for vcbc that gave out a phone # to call for a free issue.that is how i heard of the mag. the issue i received was #7. Not to put an end to the grading company conspriacy theory,that could also be true.But,i would bet they gave out a lot of this one for free.

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Posted By: Gary B.

It does become hard to know where to draw the line, but here's my take on it.

I have a card with pencil marks on the back, I have a card that obviously previoulsy had pencil marks that were erased and I have cards with paper loss. I may even have cards with creases pressed out, I wouldn't know. I just know I have never done any of that stuff myself to any cards I own - anything that was done to them was done before I received them (well, there is that card I accidentally got wet, so one could say I warped and water-stained that one myself !)

As far as all the scenarios you mentioned, I think as long as the seller of cards gives fair warning that there are pencil marks, erased pencil marks or paper loss, then that's fine - it's at the buyer's discretion as to whether they want to buy it or not. I really don't have experience with creases being pressed out. If that can be done where the card looks better, I might not have anything against that at all if it does no damage to the card and improves it to a more original form - nothing is being added to it.

I think where to draw the line is obvious. Adding paper, bleaching, fixing corners, trimming, adding ink, etc. I guess for me it breaks down to - if you erase a pencil mark that someone added on to the card in stupidity to restore it to and expose what's underneath it, it's not too different than removing backing where it was originally affixed to an album to expose what's underneath it, assuming of course that what was underneath it is still there. That's just removing extraneous things that were added on to the original card, but still that should information should be revealed. It's where you start putting things onto the card that weren't originally part of it is where it starts getting dodgy for me.

If this is done at such a level now where card experts and grading companies unequivocably cannot tell, then that's just a shame. I guess if no one is the wiser, then no one gets hurt, except for the hobby in general, but in an ideal world no cards I owned would have been treated as such. I guess one could say it could hurt the value of legitimate untreated cards. Somoene owns a PSA 7 of a card, the best example of that card known to exist. Five years later, two cards pop up that are graded PSA 8 that were PSA 4 and PSA 5 that have been altered. No one knows they have been restored, but the value of the PSA 7 is now diminished in value and esteem. Is this fair and ethical? We're not talking about a movie being digitally remastered for greater quality sound and picture - I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, but take an old black and white movie and colorize it and some people are really upset by that and would argue that an original piece of art had been altered in a way the creator didn't mean for it to be seen. Depending on how important seeing it in it's original form was, a person could react positively, indifferently or negatively. Altering cards is the same, except now we're dealing with selling something of value and the person selling it needs to let a potential buyer know so they can react positively, indifferently or negatively themselves.

I personally would rather have a card in mediocre condition than one I knew had been added on to, and if I had a card I knew had been added to where it was undetectable and I was selling it for profit without revealing what I knew aobut it, then I'm just ripping someone off. That's just my two cents.

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Posted By: PASJD

(1) Where is Daniel Paul (if that is indeed his real name) today, and (2) how many cards has he or folks like him succeeded in getting past the grading services. A couple of observations from the article. Note how Mr. Paul says in words or substance (I don't have it in front of me) that really expert restoration (presumably such as his) cannot be detected. It also doesn't appear that he was asked explicitly whether he or his "clients" were submitting his restored cards to PSA. He did admit that half of his work was done on behalf of dealers though. I suppose dealers appreciate restored cards as much as collectors from an aesthetic point of view.

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Posted By: Scott M

It certainly wasn't my intention to break any laws either...

I didn't really think twice about posting the link since its an eight year old article and the issue is out of print but your point is correct... my bad.

I've asked that the link be removed by the moderator. I'm sure that most who've wanted to see the article have by now and or can get it from Peter or myself via email.

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Posted By: MW

"Note how Mr. Paul says in words or substance (I don't have it in front of me) that really expert restoration (presumably such as his) cannot be detected."

This is clearly an exaggeration. Mr. Paul used to bring his portfolio of altered cards to all the major dealers at the National Convention and other major shows and offer his services. I've never seen a card that he has altered -- no matter how well done -- where I could not detect the difference.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

what you mean is: you can always tell, WHEN YOU CAN TELL.

Otherwise, you think the hair hasn't been dyed!

But if you just mean EVERY CARD IN HIS PORTFOLIO APPEARED ALTERED; you've got a pretty good argument...

This is the altered card I won from Sloate--auction before last--it has been "slightly touched-up on the FRONT". Can anyone tell me where to look? (got it for about half the price the person paid who sent it unsuccessfully to PSA): Barry says he thinks maybe the upper right-hand corner, BEYOND the crease--it's black, instead of white, like the other corner.

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Posted By: leon

I have erased pencil marks because I didn't want them on the card. I didn't think I was altering the card and will still do it in the future. I use a Mars Plastic eraser and they work like a charm....regards all

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Posted By: PASJD

Perhaps you could tell the difference, but can the graders at PSA, GAI and SGC (taking as an assumption their good faith)?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

If cards can be altered well enough that the alteration can not be detected, cards can be created with quality sufficient to pass as original cards.

If this is the state of the art, I am (almost) glad that I really can not afford cards worthy of professional creation.

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Posted By: Anonymous

AKA Daniel Desmond is indeed active and out there. He has been seen at the last two Hollywood Park shows in Los Angeles. He continues his work and is anything but unrecalcitrant. In fact, his take is he's providing a valuable service to the hobby. His feelings, not mine.

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Posted By: PASJD

I guess if the definition of providing a "valuable service to the hobby" means facilitating dealers' selling cards for more than they are worth then he is right. Dealers are, after all, part of the hobby. Of course there is an assumption here in my statement that is my own and let me state it clearly: I am assuming that Mr. Paul/Desmond and/or his clients, half of whom are dealers at least as of 1996 according to the interview, are not disclosing that the cards have been restored. I don't know this for a fact, but base my assumption on the fact that I do not recall the last time I saw a card up for auction on ebay, or for sale anyplace else, that was advertised as restored. If there is indeed full disclosure, then I would have a different view of course.

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Posted By: Eric Eichelkraut

My extent of altering cards is the same as Leon's..I've taken a white art eraser to remove very small pencil markings. I only do this on cards where I am positive that no color, print, or paper loss can occur...and only do this to cards I will positively not resell. I had a tough time convincing myself to even erase small pencil markings, and consulted one of vintage cards leading and most trusted hobbyists before doing so. It was suggested to me that if you are altering a card, so long as you do not change the original composition of the card, then the changes are not immoral, or wrong. I like this advise, although even that simple statement can be construed several different ways. I guess what this whole topic really comes down to is, what is the true reasoning the alteration is being made? If the intention is to deceive others or enhance a card for greater selling purposes (by changing the composition of the card)..I would call this criminal. If the purpose is to enhance a card to your liking, or to alter a card in such a way that it does not alter the original composition of the card, this is what I would deem as moral alteration..and quite honestly, quite exceptable. This is only my opinion.

On a separate note, I do want to add that I'm not sure where I stand on the topic of major restoration (such as those discussed in the VCBC article). This is a fine line, where the same question surfaces….are people being honest about the changes in the card when selling, or are they making alterations with intentions to deceive? I've only seen one card in my life that was a major restoration, and I have to say that I was very impressed. The owner will never sell it, and he would never deceive anyone into thinking that the card had not been restored. The damage sustained by this card was to the point of destroying a truly rare vintage piece beyond reasonable collectability (is this a word?). But the restoration done was so perfectly done, that I agreed that the changes made were a good thing in this particular case.

In a traditional sense, I can appreciate those who feel that any restoration is wrong. I find myself thinking that way most of time as well. However, there are always exceptions..and alike the one I just mentioned, something good is to be found in this process.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

to alter a card and sell it. It is unlawful (not criminal) in California to alter a card and sell it without disclosure.

If someone added color to a tip of a Mayo, why not rub off the color and return the card to its original state?

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Why does he have an alias?

Also, I couldn't find any publically available info on Rags To Riches Restoration. In the article (written 9 years ago, granted) he laments that more collectors don't use his services - if you can't find him, you can't use him.

Bill

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

If a card owner improves the appearance of his card through skill so fine that the alteration can not be detected, then IMO the card is worthy of the higher grade it can attain. The same is true for totally reconstructed or constructed cards. If technology can not identify these from genuine originals, then no difference exists.

I don't like it, but there is nothing that can be done.

Can fakes really be made so good that they are not detectable? If so, a card's provenance becomes crucial.

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Posted By: PASJD

Making an educated guess, even without the information provided by "Anonymous," I seriously doubt it. A man with that much apparent talent and no qualms about doing what he is doing, in an economy where there is a fortune to be made in high grade vintage cards, well you decide what the probabilities are. Indeed it would not surprise me if people on this board know exactly where the gentleman is and what he is doing and for whom, but understandably are reluctant to say.

As for the prior comment to the effect that if you can't tell the difference then there is no difference, I STRONGLY disagree.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

in either ex-mint or mint condition.

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Posted By: hankron

The rule is simple, it has always been simple and it will always be simple.

No matter whether you are selling baseball cards, Ming vases, Barbie dolls or Christmas trees, if the seller knowingly leaves out a fact, such as that the item was restored, because he knows that the disclosure of this fact will substantially lower the sell price, that is wrong.

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Posted By: hankron

That you do or can get away with it, doesn't make it right.

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Posted By: horseyoucameinon

He can and does get his work slabbed. I have seen it happen with two of the three major grading services, and not just on big time dealer submissions. Right or wrong, it "is". That my friends, is the price the hobby pays for attaching a value premium on so-called experts opining on and encapsulating cards.

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Posted By: Julie

are NOT ex-mint--mint.

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Posted By: honus3415

Card restoration is a SERIOUS issue, and one that doesn't appears to be warranting enough attention by our beloved grading comapnies.

Now I'm not talking about an erased initial or a removed wax. I'm talking about restoration through alteration with the intent to deceive.

Knowing a card is restored and submitting it for grading while knowing that the company rejects such cards is an attempt to deceive AT THE VERY LEAST the grading company!!! This is WRONG!!! And if not CRIMINAL, should be.

When a holdered item has been identified as having been professionally altered....the grading companies, at the very least, should release all other serial numbers that are associated with that submitors order(s). This would allow current holders of those items to examine them more closely, although most restorations would probably still go undetected by the average collector...it might possibly allow for the discover of a "pattern" of INTENTIONAL DECEPTION by any given individual with CRIMINAL INTENT. Then based on any additional discoveries, more serial numbers could be released of that individual's submissions.

Sure there are unknowing submission by honest collectors, we all realize that...and the facts will clear the innocent.

The unfortunate part of this sad saga is that we as collectors are the end losers. Not a big problem you say....well neither is gangrene unless it goes untreated.

I realize this is getting the cart before the horse, but the barn door was left open. Agressive action is the only recourse the hobby has at the moment to restore confidence in it's slabbed population.

This is not a problem that can rest solely on the shoulders of just the grading companies or just the collecting population....but it is one that working together that we can eliminate from our hobby.


honus3415ism:

A husband commented to his wife after seeing her looking into a mirror for half an hour (1/48th of a day). "Honey you can't improve on perfection".

Her reply, "Yes you can".


There is ALWAYS room for improvements....the greatest mistake is to not acknowledge it.

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Posted By: PASJD

PSA and its competitors are not going to do anything that will encourage people to be more skeptical of their competence. That is just common sense and sound business practice. Of course if you want to punch in cert numbers on their website all day to see what happened to cards whose serial numbers immediately preceded and followed a particular card you have questions about you can always do that, although it is ridiculously labor-intensive and doesn't really tell you anything anyway unless by some amazing coincidence you happen to be considering the purchase of those surrounding cards too. What people to whom it matters would really want to know -- WHO is submitting cards and getting a high percentage of them rejected, so one can be wary of those submitters -- is not and never will be available.

Unfortunately, it seems likely that Mr. Paul and his kind (surely if he can do it so can others) are going to succeed in getting at least a certain percentage of their work slabbed. And if my speculation that this is happening is true, and not having witnessed it first-hand it is only speculation, then the following also would seem true: (1) PSA has no incentive to disclose the truth; (2) Mr. Paul has no incentive to disclose the truth; (3) any dealers who might be relying on Mr. Paul's services have no incentive to disclose the truth; and (4) since everyone with first-hand knowledge has no incentive to disclose the truth, it is unlikely the truth will ever be disclosed. And add to that the fact that most people either (1) are naturally trusting and take a slabbed card at face value, or (2) WANT to believe their 1933 Goudey Ruths in 8 holders and their 1887 Allen and Ginters in 9 holders really are pristine and encountered absolutely no wear in the last 71 and 117 years (and so on down the line), or (3) really don't care as long as the cards have resale value, then you have.... the recipe for the perfect scam. IF any of this is happening, I should add.

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Posted By: honus3415

I totally agree....no incentive....no change.

Which is why I stick to the low graded cards....at least if they screwed up and overlooked something....it won't be much less valuable than it already is.

But I do see the day on the horizon, unless this ship is righted, when accountability will turn today's slabbed cards into the "insert refractors" of the 90's.

It could be closer than we think......

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Posted By: PASJD

In my view, that day won't come. A huge scandal (the WIWAG affair) already was exposed and it didn't do a thing as far as I can tell to dampen the market for graded cards. It's the phenomenon Paul Simon wrote about, "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." I am as much a part of it as the next guy, the only change I have made in my buying habits as a result of my learned skepticism is that I won't buy pre-war cards that are higher than mid-grade, but I still buy 50s and 60s 8s on faith that may or may not be misplaced.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

PASJD,

According to MW on Oct 12, 2004, "Obviously, some grading companies are much better at discerning alterations than others...but no company is absolutely 100% perfect. Some altered material, particularly from groups of lesser condition cards -- items that typically command less attention -- will sporadically make it through."

I agree that more attention will be paid to a $5000 card as opposed to a $200. Using the same reasoning it is easy to conclude that lower graded cards are less likely to have been altered since the upside in 99 out of 100 cases is not material. Have you ever seen a NM or better pre war card that is oversized? This is a rare as finding an undersized pre war card that has creases and corner wear. This is why MW points out on 10/26/03 on the SGC forums other issues related to card doctoring with higher graded cards.

Why is the proper detection of altered baseball cards so important?
#295608 - 10/26/03 12:02 AM

I know, it seems like a rhetorical question...the grading of altered cards defrauds the consumer by creating the false impression of a higher grade and greater value...but also consider the following secondary and tertiary effects:

When altered cards are encapsulated by a trusted grading company it artificially inflates population numbers. In the case of cards that are notoriously condition sensitive or production scarce, this may very well have the effect of devaluing legitimately graded examples. It may also have the unintended effect of usurping customer confidence in all population statistics for a given grading company. We all know that as high-end populations increase, values for the highest graded examples of a particular card tend to decrease. Some issues have value predominantly because of their undesirable placement on the original uncut sheet or due to a haphazard production or collation process. To mitigate these factors by introducing "artificial" or altered grades, a grading company is doing a grave disservice to collectors who value legitimate condition scarcity or have already paid significant sums for tough-to-find cards.

The grading of altered cards may have the eventual effect of suppressing the entry of new scarcities into the hobby marketplace. Here's why: as long-time collectors of scarce vintage cards see downward fiscal pressures on key, commonly-altered issues (e.g., color-bordered cards, high-series cards, coveted first and last set issues), they may be less inclined to submit their cards for grading. I don't think there's any question that as key vintage baseball cards sell for record prices, more specimens find their way to market. The grading of altered cards may have an eventual dampening effect on this process as prices fall. Using this same analysis, future submissions to a particular grading company may also decline as collectors will undoubtedly have a desire to have their cards encapsulated by a company that does not have a reputation for grading altered sports cards.

Another undesirable result of altered card encapsulations might be focused on collector set registries. For example, if some set builders purchase large numbers of altered cards -- issues that may be unattainable under normal circumstances -- there may be a legitimate disincentive for other collectors to compete knowing that they are paying for legitimate scarcity while other set registrants are artificially inflating their GPA and set point ratings. The long-term result might very well be the erosion of confidence in a particular company's set registry as both entry level and advanced collectors are discouraged from registering their legitimate, privately graded cards and sets. Indeed, those collectors who have the closest associations with the most prolific card doctors will benefit the most from the deception and deceit. Such associations will only act to further perpetuate the detrimental effects that card altering has on this hobby. Well-educated, honest and knowledgeable collectors will comprise the group that is hurt the most.

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Posted By: Julie

O.K. Ex-mint. Much taller than all my other T206s.

[tiger8mush]

sorry to resurrect a very old thread, but if someone could sell me vcbc issue #7 or email me the article "smoke detectors without batteries" about Daniel Paul Desmond (or whatever his alias is) it'd be very much appreciated. Or if anyone has any dirt/info/proof/history on this guy that I could pass along to a State Attorney.
Thanks!
Rob

tiger8mush@yahoo.com

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

sorry to resurrect a very old thread, but if someone could sell me vcbc issue #7 or email me the article "smoke detectors without batteries" about Daniel Paul Desmond (or whatever his alias is) it'd be very much appreciated. Or if anyone has any dirt/info/proof/history on this guy that I could pass along to a State Attorney.
Thanks!
Rob

tiger8mush@yahoo.com

14 years, I think you just set a record for a revived post. I don't have the article any more but I would guess someone does. As I mentioned somewhere else recently, Daniel was the go to guy in the 90s and maybe early 2000s, but I don't know how much work if any he is still doing for others.

Glancing back through the thread, Michael who is an elite expert in cards may well have been able to detect all of Daniel's work, but I would bet my life he (Daniel) and his clients got numerous expensive cards through TPGs.