Hard to find Hall Of famer autographs

[Bruinsfan94]

I've always wondered, which baseball hall of famer is the hardest to find a legit autograph? Are there any players who we have no known autographs of?

[travrosty]

there are some that have very few, a handful of examples at best, there are also a few examples, like addie joss, that have 1 or 2 examples, and there may be a couple that have none, depending on who you ask, like rube waddell , depends on whether or not you accept the examples that are out there as legitimate. but definitely there are some very scarce autographs of a few hall of famers that make putting together a full set almost impossible.

[hawaiian bam bam]

for those that collect hof autographs, knowing that it is impossible to collect an entire complete set of hofers, does that dissuade you from collecting hof autographs? i ask because i collect hof autographs and i always think, what the point, ill never have a "complete" set. what motivates you to collect hofers in particular? also, to answer the OP, i think there are a at least a good 25-30 players that are impossible to find. i thought i once saw a list somewhere here of those impossible hof signers. not sure where i saw it. il ltry to find it.

[Bruinsfan94]

Yea if anyone knows of an article or anything like that on the subject, I'd love to read it. If I were collecting them, I wouldn't let that get me down. Still so many that you can get and every year theres more added usually.

[tazdmb]

PSA Ranks them based on mixture of price and scarcity on a level from 1-10, with 52 unranked simply because they are so scarce. I would recommend taking this with a grain of salt.

Jesse Burkett is a 9 and Jack Chesbro is a 10, and i have seen a total of 2 combined autographs of theirs in the last few years that I would call legit, while Barney Dreyfuss is unranked and I know he is around and not as scarce as other unranked individuals-or Jack Chesbro for that matter.

http://www.psacard.com/dnasetregistr...tion.aspx?c=37

[Klrdds]

Let me offer my opinion.. Some of you are familiar with my opinion and my autograph collection especially tazdmb. I have 297 HoFer autographs,of which I am confident in 280-285 of them. I started 30 years ago and bought only from a handful of reputable dealers or auction houses, many signatures were obtained long before TPAs entered the game and began to muddy the waters in both good and bad ways . I am not aware of anybody near me in numbers of HoFer autographs.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get a full set because of the lack of any known signatures of 3-5 inductees, as well as the cost of acquisition of the rarest 20-25 signatures , the preponderance of forgeries , the demand for a TPA from companies that make obvious mistakes but yet are held in high esteem by the majority of HoFer signature collectors who I am sorry to say have NO CLUE what they are doing or buying when looking into the last 35-40 signatures because they don't do their due diligence or research and rely solely on the TPA; and finally the numbers of signatures available of many rare HoFers can't supply the demand for that signature.
For example I own, as many of you know , the only verifiable Addie Joss ( the one in Ron's book). Plus I own several HoHer autographs of which there are less than 5 known examples. So no matter how many HoFer autograph collectors there are there will never be enough signatures of some to fill the demands of the number of collectors.
I believe anything over 250 is a commendable collection and 275 is museum worthy .
These numbers may change as more people slowly liquidate their collections.
Also look at the Veteran's Committee this year .
Bill Dahlen exists but Harry Stovey , Chris Von Der Ahe are near impossible to find. I have been looking for Doc Adams since 1989 with nothing to show for it and money is not an object in most cases. So I have 9 of the 10 nominated this year but how many collectors have even 5 of the 10...that is why no one will ever complete the HoFer autograph set because of the sheer scarcity and potential cost of the rarest signatures.it is harder to complete than the Declaration of Independence signers of which I believe examples exist of all signers, but is near impossible to get even with its smaller numbers is signatures needed.
The wise HoF autograph collector goes into this knowing he will never complete the set but it never discourages them for whatever reason, and it never did me either . I have accepted the fact that I am where I am unless something fortuitous occurs . Also what makes this collection interesting is that it is not a static list it potentially changes every year, and every 3 years on the Pre integration list .
I totally agree with tazdmb... the PSA ranking system needs to be taken with a grain of salt. In fact I will say that it is way off base in its rankings.

[Bruinsfan94]

Wow that is some awesome information. I would love to know which 3-5 players have no known autographs? How do you even go about authentication with guys like Joss? Very cool to hear from someone that clearly has put so much time into this.

[travrosty]

muhammad ali opponents in boxing is similar, there are 50 but no known autograph of jim robinson, but it doesnt stop people from trying to collect them all, the next 4 or 5 autographs in terms of scarcity are eight cost prohibitive in some circumstances or else very, very difficult to find so any Ali opponent collection that approaches 45-46 of the 50 is doing very well and nothing to sneeze and that is fine with most Ali collectors.

[Bruinsfan94]

I remember reading about some one looking for Jim Robinson. Has there been any new information? Would be great if someone found him. If he is indeed alive and homeless, I'm sure someone would make him a lot of life changing money to sign a couple items.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by travrosty

muhammad ali opponents in boxing is similar, there are 50 but no known autograph of jim robinson, but it doesnt stop people from trying to collect them all, the next 4 or 5 autographs in terms of scarcity are eight cost prohibitive in some circumstances or else very, very difficult to find so any Ali opponent collection that approaches 45-46 of the 50 is doing very well and nothing to sneeze and that is fine with most Ali collectors.

Thanks for bringing to my knowledge a collecting niche that I did not know existed . That is definitely an exclusive club as well!

[RaidonCollects]

Interesting thread!

I have no clue about HOF auto's, but I'm guessing some rare one's include:

Josh Gibson
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chapman?

~Owen

[tazdmb]

Alexander Cartwright isn't common but isn't that difficult. There is one right now in REA. Josh Gibson is more rare, but even his signature comes up once in a while.

I would say the toughest are (and this can be found in numerous threads) in no order:
George Davis
Frank Grant (no known examples exist)
Pete Hill (see above)
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
Jose Mendez
Bob Feller

[Laxcat]

There is supposedly a safe somewhere that contains unautographed Bob Feller items. It could just be a rumor.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

Let me offer my opinion.. Some of you are familiar with my opinion and my autograph collection especially tazdmb. I have 297 HoFer autographs,of which I am confident in 280-285 of them. I started 30 years ago and bought only from a handful of reputable dealers or auction houses, many signatures were obtained long before TPAs entered the game and began to muddy the waters in both good and bad ways . I am not aware of anybody near me in numbers of HoFer autographs.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get a full set because of the lack of any known signatures of 3-5 inductees, as well as the cost of acquisition of the rarest 20-25 signatures , the preponderance of forgeries , the demand for a TPA from companies that make obvious mistakes but yet are held in high esteem by the majority of HoFer signature collectors who I am sorry to say have NO CLUE what they are doing or buying when looking into the last 35-40 signatures because they don't do their due diligence or research and rely solely on the TPA; and finally the numbers of signatures available of many rare HoFers can't supply the demand for that signature.
For example I own, as many of you know , the only verifiable Addie Joss ( the one in Ron's book). Plus I own several HoHer autographs of which there are less than 5 known examples. So no matter how many HoFer autograph collectors there are there will never be enough signatures of some to fill the demands of the number of collectors.
I believe anything over 250 is a commendable collection and 275 is museum worthy .
These numbers may change as more people slowly liquidate their collections.
Also look at the Veteran's Committee this year .
Bill Dahlen exists but Harry Stovey , Chris Von Der Ahe are near impossible to find. I have been looking for Doc Adams since 1989 with nothing to show for it and money is not an object in most cases. So I have 9 of the 10 nominated this year but how many collectors have even 5 of the 10...that is why no one will ever complete the HoFer autograph set because of the sheer scarcity and potential cost of the rarest signatures.it is harder to complete than the Declaration of Independence signers of which I believe examples exist of all signers, but is near impossible to get even with its smaller numbers is signatures needed.
The wise HoF autograph collector goes into this knowing he will never complete the set but it never discourages them for whatever reason, and it never did me either . I have accepted the fact that I am where I am unless something fortuitous occurs . Also what makes this collection interesting is that it is not a static list it potentially changes every year, and every 3 years on the Pre integration list .
I totally agree with tazdmb... the PSA ranking system needs to be taken with a grain of salt. In fact I will say that it is way off base in its rankings.

Well said and thanks for the info. Jason

[Bruinsfan94]

Does anyone have of or know of a scan of a George Davis? I've been pretty interested in his career and would love to see one.

[prewarsports]

Two George Davis signatures exist (that I am aware of) but the owners I would imagine are very secretive about images being released for prospective forgers to use as an example. I have never seen either one, just have spoken to the one-time owner that had both of them so I know they exist.

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Two George Davis signatures exist (that I am aware of) but the owners I would imagine are very secretive about images being released for prospective forgers to use as an example. I have never seen either one, just have spoken to the one-time owner that had both of them so I know they exist.

Out of curiosity, do you know the source of the two autographs or how the owner you know of got them.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Bruinsfan94

I remember reading about some one looking for Jim Robinson. Has there been any new information? Would be great if someone found him. If he is indeed alive and homeless, I'm sure someone would make him a lot of life changing money to sign a couple items.

As far as I know there has been no new information. Robinson had never been located and his autograph never located. A lot of money has been spent looking for him and considering his situation and age, he may not be alive any longer. there has probably not been a more exhaustive, time consuming and costly search involved finding a sports figure than the one launched to find jim robinson, but to no avail. the search was probably 10-15 years too late to try to locate him. His name is too common to find him with a name search and all leads end up dry.

[r2678]

Being an Indans fan, I've long had an interest in Addie Joss and have managed to collect a few of his cards. I've often wondered why his autograph is virtually non existant. He was an educated man, went to college, had a job as a sports writer in the off season and lived in Toledo, a decent size city. One would think he had a library and a circle of friends he corresponded with. Yet, no autographs. Has anyone advanced a theory?

People did collect autographs during his era. All one has to do is to search for theatrical autographs to see this was a flourishing hobby. Was baseball that far behind the popularity of the Maude Adams and Anna Helds of the time?

Just wondering.

[cfhofer]

I found a beautiful handwritten ink signed letter by Frank Selee in a scrapbook of a 1901 Michigan football player. It was a recruitment letter to play pro ball. Not having a clue on baseball autographs (I'm a football collector), I sent the scan to several dealers. The offers were all over the map. When I decided to go with the most reputable dealer the others got really nasty...telling me this letter must be pretty rare. Don't know where it ranks on your list but he must be pretty high given their reaction.

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by cfhofer

I found a beautiful handwritten ink signed letter by Frank Selee in a scrapbook of a 1901 Michigan football player. It was a recruitment letter to play pro ball. Not having a clue on baseball autographs (I'm a football collector), I sent the scan to several dealers. The offers were all over the map. When I decided to go with the most reputable dealer the others got really nasty...telling me this letter must be pretty rare. Don't know where it ranks on your list but he must be pretty high given their reaction.

I actually know about this letter including seeing your original post about your find on another board. All I will say is you did sell to the most reputable dealer.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Bruinsfan94

Does anyone have of or know of a scan of a George Davis? I've been pretty interested in his career and would love to see one.

There is an example of Davis' signature in Ron Keurajian's book.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Two George Davis signatures exist (that I am aware of) but the owners I would imagine are very secretive about images being released for prospective forgers to use as an example. I have never seen either one, just have spoken to the one-time owner that had both of them so I know they exist.

I have heard for years since Davis was elected that there are only 2 of his signatures out there , and I passed along word at the time that I would buy one for xxxxx dollars . I never heard back .

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

I actually know about this letter including seeing your original post about your find on another board. All I will say is you did sell to the most reputable dealer.

I actually heard about this when it happened and I agree with tazdmb about your sale. If it wasn't me it should have been the person you sold it to.

[cfhofer]

I technically consigned the letter, however my guess is that he just bought it off me. Regardless, I was happy with the end result.

[egri]

I'm curious where Martin Dihigo ranks on the list. I know his family has put out a lot of forgeries.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by cfhofer

I technically consigned the letter, however my guess is that he just bought it off me. Regardless, I was happy with the end result.

From my sources everybody was happy, but me because I was too late.😀😀😀

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by r2678

People did collect autographs during his era. All one has to do is to search for theatrical autographs to see this was a flourishing hobby. Was baseball that far behind the popularity of the Maude Adams and Anna Helds of the time?

Just wondering.

That's pretty much exactly the reason. It wasn't until the 20's and the emergence of Babe Ruth that ballplayers became widely considered celebrity enough to ask for their signatures. Heck, it wasn't even until the late 1980's that people even cared about more than just the superstars in baseball - at least, that's when the boom really hit. You hear guys from the 70's say all the time how people just didn't collect all that much back when they played. Seems unreal to think of now.

Autograph collecting is an extremely old hobby but used to be reserved for actors, politicians, artists...people who found fame in those type of genres.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by egri

I'm curious where Martin Dihigo ranks on the list. I know his family has put out a lot of forgeries.

Martin Dihigo is not impossible by any means. His autograph I would consider to be rare but not in the top 25 hardest. Yes there are many forgeries of his autograph out there not just from his family.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Heck, it wasn't even until the late 1980's that people even cared about more than just the superstars in baseball - at least, that's when the boom really hit.

And boy, how times have changed. I'm thinking about a few years ago, when someone paid $17,000 for a baseball card of someone who, at that point, had never pitched a single game in the Major Leagues! (Stephen Strasburg) And if that wasn't enough, the guy who bought the card flipped it to someone else for $24,000!

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

And boy, how times have changed. I'm thinking about a few years ago, when someone paid $17,000 for a baseball card of someone who, at that point, had never pitched a single game in the Major Leagues! (Stephen Strasburg) And if that wasn't enough, the guy who bought the card flipped it to someone else for $24,000!

Exactly! I'll never understand overpaying for hype. That card in a hundred years will never come close to that kind of value. It's like why would someone pay five figures for a guy who is "going to be good (maybe)" but aren't willing to pay a fraction of that for someone who is already proven to be good? I guess it's the allure of whatever is new at the moment, but for $24000 there's a decent list of long-deceased HOFers I would've added to my collection. And that's not even considering the old stuff is drying up exponentially while Strasburg is in his 20's and has a lifetime to continue signing. Off topic, sorry, that's just a topic that never ceases to amaze me...

[CooperstownExpert]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

Martin Dihigo is not impossible by any means. His autograph I would consider to be rare but not in the top 25 hardest. Yes there are many forgeries of his autograph out there not just from his family.

There's a site with some pretty tough autographs on it. Here's the page for DiHigo
http://www.cooperstownexpert.com/player/martin-dihigo/

It's got Chesbro, Amos Rusie, Henry Chadwick, Alex Pompez, and a bunch of other toughies. Also has some amazing pieces on more common guys. The letters from Cardinals owner Sam Breadon to Stan Musial are a good example.

[tazdmb]

Beautiful sight, but question some of the autographs like Anson and Chesbro

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by r2678

Being an Indans fan, I've long had an interest in Addie Joss and have managed to collect a few of his cards. I've often wondered why his autograph is virtually non existant. He was an educated man, went to college, had a job as a sports writer in the off season and lived in Toledo, a decent size city. One would think he had a library and a circle of friends he corresponded with. Yet, no autographs. Has anyone advanced a theory?

People did collect autographs during his era. All one has to do is to search for theatrical autographs to see this was a flourishing hobby. Was baseball that far behind the popularity of the Maude Adams and Anna Helds of the time?

Just wondering.

Wow John, this may be the slowest response to a post on net54 (almost a year), but I just spotted your question when this thread got bumped yesterday.

I suspect several people on this board can weigh in on your question related to Addie Joss's scarcity. FYI, I have pondered the same question.
To the best of my knowledge. there are only two examples of Addie's signature in the hobby that are deemed authentic.

After discussing this topic with many people in the hobby, there are many reasons that his signature is so scarce.
Here are a few to note:

Early death date- 1911
Age-31
Short career as a ML ball player- 9 years
Autograph collecting had not yet become common in the hobby
The Addie Joss family house on Fulton Street, Toledo completely burned to the ground and all family documents, photos, etc. were lost.


I hope this helps...

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Exactly! I'll never understand overpaying for hype. That card in a hundred years will never come close to that kind of value. It's like why would someone pay five figures for a guy who is "going to be good (maybe)" but aren't willing to pay a fraction of that for someone who is already proven to be good?

I think at least part of it is the idea of getting in on the ground floor and the bragging rights that come with it. In the case of that specific Strasburg card, it's a very expensive ground floor, but it's still a ground floor nonetheless.