Condition / grading obsession in the hobby

[MCoxon]

What's your take on how the hobby has evolved over the years with respect to condition?

Seems to me a high end collector "sub-set" has emerged paying obscene prices for high-grade cards -- say, PSA 8-10 -- based on their condition scarcity, even though those cards often have only minute differences in actual condition (e.g., need a loupe, black light, etc.)

When I was growing up, raw vintage cards that were in Ex-Mt condition at the card shop seemed rare and "high-end". But today, a PSA 6 is considered "Mid-grade".

Feels like this is creating a two-tier market: high-end where prices are skyrocketing like precious metals; and "all other", where prices are actually fairly stable over 20, 30 years.

(check out Mike Payne's Top 300 baseball cards book from 1999, the prices listed seem similar to today's prices for anything from Good to Ex-Mt after adjusting for condition. But a PSA 8 or PSA 9 suddenly goes for 3-10x what the 1999 "high-range" price listed in the book)

Anyway - is this focus on grading and particularly the high-end focus good or bad for the hobby? Why? The answer is probably "It's good in some ways, bad in others" - but would love to hear other collectors' take.

[ALR-bishop]

I think it depends on why one collects cards.... hobby only, investment only, or combination hobby and investment. Also depends on whether you are just a collector, just a seller, or do both. If you sell and invest , in whole or part, grading is hard to ignore or avoid

Also, if you get caught up in the Registry rankings, you are hooked

[David W]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I think it depends on why one collects cards.... hobby only, investment only, or combination hobby and investment. Also depends on whether you are just a collector, just a seller, or do both. If you sell and invest , in whole or part, grading is hard to ignore or avoid

Also, if you get caught up in the Registry rankings, you are hooked

Yes, what Al says.

There are a fairly large number of people with deep pockets driving the high end market up for a variety of reasons, ego, investments, or whatever.

But the low and mid range condition stuff, which is much more plentiful, doesn't seem to change a whole lot.

[MCoxon]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I think it depends on why one collects cards.... hobby only, investment only, or combination hobby and investment. Also depends on whether you are just a collector, just a seller, or do both. If you sell and invest , in whole or part, grading is hard to ignore or avoid

Also, if you get caught up in the Registry rankings, you are hooked

Do you think grading created more "investors" vs. collectors? That could be one of the outcomes of the introduction of grading...

[David W]

Originally Posted by MCoxon

Do you think grading created more "investors" vs. collectors? That could be one of the outcomes of the introduction of grading...

Maybe, but where grading really grew in popularity was the advent of E Bay.

It made it much simpler to purchase cards when you knew what you were getting.

There was Tipton mint, and Larry Fritch mint, and on and on it went. I hated the descriptions in some of the old Fritch catalogs - NM, except for punch hole in top, or VG/EX - except for writing and slight crease.

What did that mean??????

So PSA and others devised a scale with standards and you knew what a 1, 2,3.... etc were.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by David W

Yes, what Al says.

There are a fairly large number of people with deep pockets driving the high end market up for a variety of reasons, ego, investments, or whatever.

But the low and mid range condition stuff, which is much more plentiful, doesn't seem to change a whole lot.

Until auction houses don't put the Registry ranking on their descriptions, the registry will always be important

low POP cards in the best condition that are sought after in the top tier rankings are the new 'star' cards ......big stars but short of HOFs or almost HOFs in vintage with high POP really don't sell as well as low POP PSA 8s of unknown guys for 1950s cards for example..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by David W

Maybe, but where grading really grew in popularity was the advent of E Bay.

It made it much simpler to purchase cards when you knew what you were getting.

There was Tipton mint, and Larry Fritch mint, and on and on it went. I hated the descriptions in some of the old Fritch catalogs - NM, except for punch hole in top, or VG/EX - except for writing and slight crease.

What did that mean??????

So PSA and others devised a scale with standards and you knew what a 1, 2,3.... etc were.

the few times I have bought raw cards I have been disappointed....I almost never disappointed on graded cards if ever..

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I think it depends on why one collects cards.... hobby only, investment only, or combination hobby and investment. Also depends on whether you are just a collector, just a seller, or do both. If you sell and invest , in whole or part, grading is hard to ignore or avoid

Also, if you get caught up in the Registry rankings, you are hooked

Agree w/what Al said. Personally I just collect as a hobby, BUT when I'm gone (pushing up daisies, expired and gone to meet 'is maker!, a stiff! Bereft of life, etc.) I'd like my collection to be worth "something" to "someone". Again, I probably should depart of it before I go... Anyone what a bunch of Brooksie junk?!?

Personally I don't understand the registry thing, but every now and then I do have an urge to pick up a high grade card, then I see the price tag, and the urge goes away...

[ALR-bishop]

But what if you become one of the walking dead Mark ? What then ?

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

But what if you become one of the walking dead Mark ? What then ?

This isn't the end. - Tyreese

Oh, and Al I'll have to will you my "bestest" item so you can post it along w/the '67 Topps full color test sheet and you'll be an envy to someone else besides me...

Originally Posted by David W

Yes, what Al says.

There are a fairly large number of people with deep pockets driving the high end market up for a variety of reasons, ego, investments, or whatever.

But the low and mid range condition stuff, which is much more plentiful, doesn't seem to change a whole lot.

Just like the Stock Exchange "Market Makers"

[pawpawdiv9]

I look at it 2 groups. The registry guys and other like me that just collect what they like.
The registry thing has/had a huge impact i think, people want to be #1 and thus prices surge in order to acheive their goal or agenda to acheive that. These are the guys that basically buy the grade, not the card. Unitl SGC or Beckett develop something like what PSA, its PSA to lose. If and when the others do, it may be another boom in the market, the TPG then also could see more demand in crossovers perhap as well. If someone has a stonghold on the #1 spot on PSA, they essentially could move to SGC and be #1 there. In which case, it opens an argument which is better? #1 on PSA or #1 on SGC.

The other groups:
I collect what i like. Either it been Mickey Mantle or what i collect now, which is post-war Hof'ers. (i also got 2 t206 Cobbs)
I think i collected these card, becasue of these were the names to collect when i and you grew up. Names like Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Banks, Paige.
The veterans on this more, more tend to older guys like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner.
But to tell ya, over the year i am growing to love these pre-war cars as well.
This is perhaps a reason some fav's like Ruth are driving prices up. He is iconic still this day.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pawpawdiv9

I look at it 2 groups. The registry guys and other like me that just collect what they like.
The registry thing has/had a huge impact i think, people want to be #1 and thus prices surge in order to acheive their goal or agenda to acheive that. These are the guys that basically buy the grade, not the card. Unitl SGC or Beckett develop something like what PSA, its PSA to lose. If and when the others do, it may be another boom in the market, the TPG then also could see more demand in crossovers perhap as well. If someone has a stonghold on the #1 spot on PSA, they essentially could move to SGC and be #1 there. In which case, it opens an argument which is better? #1 on PSA or #1 on SGC.

The other groups:
I collect what i like. Either it been Mickey Mantle or what i collect now, which is post-war Hof'ers. (i also got 2 t206 Cobbs)
I think i collected these card, becasue of these were the names to collect when i and you grew up. Names like Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Banks, Paige.
The veterans on this more, more tend to older guys like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner.
But to tell ya, over the year i am growing to love these pre-war cars as well.
This is perhaps a reason some fav's like Ruth are driving prices up. He is iconic still this day.

right and short of the Ruths of the world, when people don't grow up with the player..the only 'stars' are lop pop high grade guys.....for the registry its not about being number 1.....most people have no chance to be number one on vintage sets....but a way to organize the cards and a way to have among the top tier where its gets challenging...

i understand the attractiveness of prices of lower grade cards..but when you sell them back you have a less chance to make back your money than the high price higher grade cards...

i tend to only like cards that even it its worse raw beat up condition it has value..

a 51 rookie mays beat up and a rip still can be 100s........but a robin young 1975 psa 10 that may be in the 1000s is worth zero if raw and beat up...that's the power of 'high grade'....the fact you can resell them....more money going into the card but more money to make back....i guess you pay for what you get.......

If you bought the star cards like Ruth, Young, Dimaggio, Williams, Mantle and etc back in the 70's and 80's you were lucky getting in on the ground floor before the hype.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by rgpete

If you bought the star cards like Ruth, Young, Dimaggio, Williams, Mantle and etc back in the 70's and 80's you were lucky getting in on the ground floor before the hype.

Quite.

I think it should be mentioned that the hobby grew exponentially in the early 70s at the rate of almost year by year. It was in the mid-70s when John Q. Public was finally made aware of the increasing value of baseball cards through television reports and various feature articles in newspaper and magazines.

Result?

The public began to dig in their cellars, attics, trunks, closets, garages, and those of their parents and grandparents. Once in a great while white whales would be found and brought to the hobby via shows, answers to advertisements placed in newspapers. Certain dealers, especially Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen, were spending a fortune in advertising just to get the attention of hobby people and particularly any of those fortunate few who found those white whales. As I am certain you already know this, among those who phoned Mr. Mint was a guy in the mid-1980s, whose Dad was a rep for a sporting goods distributor. He had this one sealed case left over from the early 50s....the find of a case of 1952 Topps High Numbers and semi-highs. From which eventually came the 10 PSA graded MINT and GEM MINT 1952 Topps Mickey Mantles, as well as a the rare opportunity to purchase ultra high-grade semi-highs and the intensely desirable other high numbers. I dearly wish I had ... oh never mind.

It was indeed a ground floor boom time.

Collecting hobbies virtually always have items that are particularly prized, and valued accordingly if they have been certified/authenticated and graded Near Mint/ Mint or better.

Interesting topic. ---Brian Powell

[Exhibitman]

Lots of factors at work:

I tend to like to get cards in the condition I had them when I was a kid. For me, that means the 1970s are pack fresh, the late 1960s look pretty good, say ex or better, and earlier cards are rougher. I am very happy with vg cards from the 1950s golden era of Topps, for example. That said, I will pick up better condition cards when the price is right.

As for slabbing, it is imperative for mail order and eBay. In person, like at the National, I can take the time to sift through and study the cards to see whether they meet my criteria. By mail or on eBay, not so much. A wrinkle here, a bumped corner there, etc. Dealers' standards varied so widely that a PSA or SGC or BVG is very useful.

So, to go back to the OP, I think TPGs have a place, but I have always found the registry competition over supposedly high grade cards to be incomprehensible. I see basically no difference between a 9 and a 10, and many 8s are just as nice. To each his own, except that the price inflation from deep pocketed collectors fighting over the 9-10 cards tends to push collectors down to lesser grades for their collections, which in turn pushes up prices for lesser grade cards. We're seeing that right now with Mantle and Aaron cards.

[PowderedH2O]

Been there - done that. I was on the registry and I was trying like heck to get high on the rankings in lots of sets. I collect baseball, basketball, and football. I was a few cards away from a 1954 Bowman football set in all 8's or higher, when I bought a lot of about 13 cards on ebay from a seller hoping to get one of the ones I needed to send off to PSA. I paid $65 for the lot and it included George Blanda and a few other names. The cards were probably in the 4-6 range.

Over the next few weeks I started thinking about the thousands of dollars I had in this one set and the $65 I spent picking up some great looking Vg-Ex to Ex Mint cards. I sold that Bowman set, and I've gradually sold most of my graded stuff. I realize that Vg-Ex to Ex on 1950's cards is just fine for me.

As far as being disappointed, I think it goes about 50/50. I get cards that are described as Ex-Mint that are clearly VG at best. At other times, I get cards that are described as Vg-Ex that I can't find a single flaw. The best is when cards have no grades, but the seller just says "see photos". Two weeks ago I took a chance and for $115 from one seller with crappy photos I got a 1957 Aaron, a 1960 Aaron, a 1961 Yaz, a 1961 Marichal rookie, and a 1961 Santo rookie. The Aaron was probably Vg-Ex, and the other four were Ex-Mint to Near Mint. I couldn't have bought those cards graded for anywhere near $115. So, into my raw sets they go!

So glad that I am cured from the registry!

Sam