Ty Cobb Back Scarcity vs. Brown Old Mill Back Scarcity

[DixieBaseball]

With 10 Ty Cobb backs being graded by PSA & SGC and perhaps a few more that possibly could be raw or be graded by BVG, I want to get opinions on whether the Ty Cobb backs are actually more rare than the Brown Old Mill SL backs. I am aware of 3 to 4 Brown Old Mills that I have seen (if memory serves correctly) over the last 10 years. Obviously there could be more in private hands, but can anyone here substantiate that they have seen more than 10-12 Brown old mills ? If not, wouldn't it be safe to say that Brown Old Mills (SL) would be the rarer of the 2 backs between Ty Cobb reverse & Brown OM ?

The Brown OM's I am aware/seen are Bernhard, Helm, Revelle, & possibly Kiernan.

Does anyone else know of more ? Can you substantiate more than 10 Brown OM's ? If not, shouldn't we consider the Brown OM (SL) the rarer of the 2 backs ? (Ty Cobb reverse)

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Jeremy,
Check out T206 Resource.... 11 different Brown Old Mils have been confirmed, and I think a few have been seen more than once...
Hope this helps.. Be well Brian


PS I think 13-15 Cobb/Cobb backs are known....

[E93]

There are 11 different confirmed brown Old Mills. Others here may know which of those have multiple examples known. I was under the impression that there were somewhere in the high teens of total confirmed examples.

THere are 12 (or maybe 13 confirmed Ty Cobb brand backs). I have been following them pretty closely for about 20 years and I can confirm 12. I personally know of 3 that have been crossed either from PSA to SGC or visa versa, so the pop report #s are skewed.
JimB

Edited to add: I was working on this as Brian beat me to the punch. Hi Brian.

[atx840]

Smith/Atlanta has two known examples. With sheets being stacked 2+ high of each player id think that every known card at one point had a few twins.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=14094
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2010/297.html

[Abravefan11]

As Brian said there are 11 known brown Old Mill subjects and we have documented 14 different examples.

[DixieBaseball]

Brian & Jim - Thanks for sending me to the T206resource.com - I had actually gone to the website before my post, but didn't find what I was looking for, but just went back again, and found it. A nice spreadsheet with all known examples highlighted. (Again, Terrific work Tim & Jim and contributors! What a nice resource for the collecting community)

Chris - I wonder if the Sid Smith Atlanta from REA Lot was resold in the Goodwin auction individually and that is actually the same card in both auctions? (Both auctions are from 2010) -- Thanks for the 2 links !

http://t206resource.com/Brown%20Old%...Checklist.html

14 Documented Brown Old Mill Backs with 3 being duplicates.
12/13 Documented Ty Cobb Backs (JimB) or 13-15 (Brian)

The Race for Rarity is neck and neck... If the 3 duplicates are not duplicates, then we are down to 11... (How sure are we that there are 3 duplicates?)

[atx840]

These are two separate examples.

[DixieBaseball]

Chris - Thanks for the 2 scans - Pretty obvious.... I wonder which players represent the other 2 duplicates ?

[wonkaticket]

Revelle is one....

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks John - Appreciate the info.

Smith, Revelle, and ....

[JerryTotino]

Sorry for bumping up this old thread, but I thought my post would make more sense in the context of this thread.

I recently picked up what I thought was a new example of a Sid Smith Brown Old Mill graded authentic by PSA.

Smith Brown Old Mill front002.jpg

Smith Brown Old Mill back002.jpg

Based on this thread there are two confirmed Sid Smith Brown Old Mills both graded by SGC.

I was about to post that a 3rd example has been confirmed, but I no longer believe that to be true.

To the best of my knowledge one of the SGC examples was originally in a PSA authentic holder and later encapsulated by SGC. This card was originally part of Goodwin auction XXVI from 4/22/2010.

The second SGC example was part of the REA 5/3/2010 auction.

Chris did a nice job of posting both of these auction links/scans earlier in this thread.

What surprised me was that I found an old scan of a raw Sid Smith Brown Old Mill on my computer.

Sid Smith Brown Old Mill.jpg

The original consignor of the REA Sid Smith Brown Old Mill had sent me these scans around late 2006.

As you can see from the scans both of these backs have the same exact marks around the “I” and “LL” in MILL. In addition, there are other characteristics on the front that indicate it is the same card.

I tried to verify they were the same card using the REA scans, but the scan is too small for me to see the details.

I was able to verify with the REA consignor that his Sid Smith Brown Old Mill was raw when first consigned to REA and that REA had it graded by SGC. In addition, I asked the REA consignor if he feels they are the same card and he also seems to lean in that direction.

Any opinions are welcome.

Thanks,

Jerry

[thehoodedcoder]

what does everyone think the going rate on one of these cards would be?

kevin

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

what does everyone think the going rate on one of these cards would be?

kevin

To the original question of the thread it sounds like the known quantity of each back is close.

As for the most recent Brown Old Mills posted, They look like the same card to me. Pricing is too erratic for me to venture a guess. I am sure someone else can.

[atx840]

I believe a boardmember has the other example with the stain.

I'd say that's it, haven't had a decent scan so thanks for sharing and congrats!

[CMIZ5290]

TY Cobb reverse is rarer....

[JerryTotino]

Leon and Chris I appreciate your feedback. At this point I'll assume that my example is the same example from REA, but crossed over to a PSA holder.

Kevin to be honest I don't have a good sense of what a fair market value would be for a Brown Old Mill. I believe the last public transactions that took place were in 2010.

The Goodwin Sid Smith went for around $4,300, but this card was not publicized too well. It was originally listed as just an authenticate Sid Smith card until someone noticed it was a brown back and notified Bill. Then it appears Bill just modified the title of the lot. The correction was never made to the catalog.

The REA example was part of a large back lot that went for almost 20K. Since the Brown Old Mill was part of a large lot it's hard to say the value the buyer placed on just this card.

Both of these transactions also happened before the T206 back craze hit full swing.

Thanks,

Jerry

[ullmandds]

Obviously a particular player with a brown OM back is much rarer than the cobb/cobb card...but if you just want a brown OM type...that would be easier than the cobb.

[cfc1909]

the current count which I am sure will change is 14 brown Old Mill and 15 Cobb.

[ullmandds]

Wow...i didnt realize it was that close!

[atx840]

Jim does that include Leon's, the two 649 OPs and the triple strike?

[cfc1909]

Leon's card is included because it does have a brown Old Mill in there with all that other 150 stuff going on at the same time. The 2 649s are included. The triple strike, I believe is a Pat Chan (Hi Pat) creation. Just 1 Greminger, the 649.

The tip off on the triple strike (I only help for about a minute at a Philly show) was a factory cut just like the black bars.

[cfc1909]

Jerry

as far as I know there are 2 Sid Smith's but very possible for a 3rd to show

[wonkaticket]

I’d say the “Brown” Old Mill is the toughest hands down since the “Ty Cobb” back isn’t even a T206.



Cheers,

John

[atx840]

Thanks Jim.

Wasn't the triple in the Levy's collection before Pat purchased it? It looked good to me.

To note, I've had nothing but great experiences with Pat and really doubt he has fabricated it.

Wonka

[Sean]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I’d say the “Brown” Old Mill is the toughest hands down since the “Ty Cobb” back isn’t even a T206.



Cheers,

John

I also think that the Cobb back is a separate issue, not a part of the T206 set.

But on T206Resource they list the Cobb, and also the Coupons and Red Cross backs, but only for comparison purposes.
So what's up Jim, when are you going to include Pirates backs for comparison as well?

[wonkaticket]

Chris,

Sadly Pat Chan was caught making fake over prints and came semi-clean once the FBI was involved. Some great work by Jim Rivera and others helped bring this to light for those who may find this as new news.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112134

Perhaps this triple is real....but as a word of advice taken or not. I would always use extreme caution if it were me and I was buying cards from Pat.

Cheers,

John

[hank_jp]

I originally acquired the Old Mill Triple Strike from Vivian Barning and I believe she had it, along with many other rare backs, for many years. As those of you who saw it may remember, two of the Old Mill Strikes were black ink and one was clearly brown.

Hank

[atx840]

Hi Hank...awesome to see you post!


I've seen close up loopes of the triple and it looks real to me. I'd pick it up if it was something I could afford.

Wonka I remember when that went down, very well done on your and Jim's part. I have boughten a few from Pat, always made sure the cards were known to the hobby prior to him acquiring or without a doubt were real (ghost, yellow browns & blank backs). Another boardmember has several from him as well, I believe all are legit. In no way am I defending what he did...he's admitted it was awful....I think the triple is real and Pat has been honest with me.

I do appreciate your advice and concern....can never be to careful with these.

[E93]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

the current count which I am sure will change is 14 brown Old Mill and 15 Cobb.

Jim,
Are you aware of some new discoveries of Ty Cobb backs in the past couple of years? There were 12 confirmed and a rumored 13th that never surfaced as of a couple of years ago. I have not heard of any others since then.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Chris, you know your stuff so I'm sure you're fine...however he did swindle some pretty knowledgeable collectors along the way.

[atx840]

I can find only 12 scans....some have flipped holders....more would be great to see.

[E93]

Originally Posted by atx840

I believe a boardmember has the other example with the stain.

Yep. And the stain is still present.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Jim B.

[atx840]

Jim, was hoping you would show it....a beauty!!!

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by atx840

Hi Hank...awesome to see you post!


I've seen close up loopes of the triple and it looks real to me. I'd pick it up if it was something I could afford.

Wonka I remember when that went down, very well done on your and Jim's part. I have boughten a few from Pat, always made sure the cards were known to the hobby prior to him acquiring or without a doubt were real (ghost, yellow browns & blank backs). Another boardmember has several from him as well, I believe all are legit. In no way am I defending what he did...he's admitted it was awful....I think the triple is real and Pat has been honest with me.

I do appreciate your advice and concern....can never be to careful with these.

I also do buisiness 2 time with Pat for 2 Magie error cards and never had any issue or trouble with Pat. But each time i make sure also that the cards i bought is know to the hobby
.