Pre-black Tuesday photos

[Forever Young]

The old PRE-WWII examples on the card side are great. Let's show what original baseball photography has to offer in the PRE-GREAT DEPRESSION era. Let's set the date on black Tuesday or prior(Oct 29,1929). Why this date? Well, it just sounded "good". Plus, it was before wire photos really took off
(images were sent/received instantly). The baseball photography world was not a "well oiled machine" yet and I find there are far few great/important images(than in 30s-70s). IMO
Anyway...anyone have any personal examples to share?

I will start with my most recent pickup(1915 Red Sox pitching staff/Ruth) underwood and underwood photo as well as an original 1915 photo of ruth and teammates in the underwood and underwood archives looking through photos(looking at mine of themselves??-prob not but cool to think about it!!).

[3-2-count]

Fabulous idea for a thread Ben. Here's an original 8x10 photo I can share of the Red Sox & Tigers battling it out somewhere between 1901 and 1911 at the old Huntington Avenue Grounds ballpark in Boston. Now tell me! Can you think of a better way to watch a game than this?

[thecatspajamas]

How about a little pre-game entertainment? Here's Nick Altrock and Al Schacht performing on the field prior to Game 3 of the 1924 World Series:

[Forever Young]

Tony, that photo is so neat. The crowd!! Wowsers... they were definitely not worried about a screaming foul ball that is for sure. It is very telling of the times. I love these old stadium shots. Thanks to Lance for providing the entertainment . I focus on portraits or close ups of single players(mostly). But maybe I'll need to add a couple great stadium shots.

Here are a some more Original Type 1s from my collection from the era:

1)1908 HONUS WAGNER by G.G. BAIN(batting lefty-RARE)-some say its wags and soem say it is not. You be the judge. Below it is a Honus Wagner by Paul Thompson
2) 1916 WALTER JOHNSON by G.G. BAIN
3) 1917 TY COBB by G.G. BAIN
4) 1913 CHRISTY MATHEWSON (10X13 OVERSIZED PORTRAIT)

[Ulidia]

Have many pre-Black Tuesday photos and, although I've shown this one before and it's not necessarily one of the more valuable, it remains one of my favourites. Gehrig + Ruth @ Westpoint, 1927:

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

Have many pre-Black Tuesday photos and, although I've shown this one before and it's not necessarily one of the more valuable, it remains one of my favourites. Gehrig + Ruth @ Westpoint, 1927:

It is beautiful! I bid on this one but can't remember where... was that in HYEE AUCTIONS or Legendary? It is an awesome photo and wish I would have added to my collection. Now that I think through this.. it must have been HYEE right? I guess this because I must have had to be choosey or spent too much on ones ending first so I could not go after strong. Thanks for posting.. it is absolutely incredible. Doesn't get much better than Babe and Lou together in 1927. LOL @ that goofball behind Ruth.

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

It is beautiful! I bid on this one but can't remember where... was that in HYEE AUCTIONS or Legendary? It is an awesome photo and wish I would have added to my collection. Now that I think through this.. it must have been HYEE right? I guess this because I must have had to be choosey or spent too much on ones ending first so I could not go after strong. Thanks for posting.. it is absolutely incredible. Doesn't get much better than Babe and Lou together in 1927. LOL @ that goofball behind Ruth.

Yes, that photo came up in a HYEE auction. For whatever reason, I love it. For some years now, I've had a beautiful shot of the Yankees line-up for an exhibition game @ Westpoint in 1943 and had always been a beautiful image to me so was grateful to get the opportunity to pick-up a photo of Gehrig & Ruth there some years previously.


Here's a rookie photo (1926) of Lazzeri who, in my modest opinion, is the most photographic of all baseball players:

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

Here's a rookie photo (1926) of Lazzeri who, in my modest opinion, is the most photographic of all baseball players.

I must agree Lazzeri always makes a great photo. You have a beautiful photo there. Have you ever looked into removing the editorial marks? Here is my 1926 rookie by G.G. Bain along with Ruth and Gehrig no doubt taken on the same day.

[HRBAKER]

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

I must agree Lazzeri always makes a great photo. You have a beautiful photo there. Have you ever looked into removing the editorial marks? Here is my 1926 rookie by G.G. Bain along with Ruth and Gehrig no doubt taken on the same day.

Beautiful shots there.

I haven't really considered removing those editorial marks. Not to say that I wouldn't someday but don't feel the need just now and, if I did, I'd likely need to do it professionally as I wouldn't trust my own skill set.

I currently have 4 portrait / individual photos of Lazzeri from 1926 and, in hindsight, have regretted not being more aggressive in bidding when others have come up.

[thecatspajamas]

One last one for today, that I enjoy more for the backstory than anything:

Charlie "Victory" Faust was a mascot for John McGraw's New York Giants. Faust, who appears to have been delusional, came to McGraw during 1911 season and claimed that a fortune teller had predicted that the Giants would win the pennant if Faust pitched for them. McGraw, who was very superstitious, kept Faust on the team for the remainder of the season. With Faust as a mascot, the Giants went on a tear, winning 40 of their last 53 games and valuting from 3 1/2 games back to win the pennant by 7 1/2 games. After the flag was secured, Faust was allowed to appear in two meaningless games, where he allowed 1 run in 2 innings and scored twice. He continued as mascot, though not in uniform, in the 1912 season and then was cut loose. Faust died of tuburculosis in an insane asylum in Washington in 1915.

Can you imagine ANY manager nowadays adding someone to the team, let alone actually allowing them to pitch in a game, just because they said, "Miss Cleo said you would win if you let me pitch?!"

[3-2-count]

Thanks for the kind words Ben. Your portrait shots are amazing. Me, I do love the stadium shots. Here's another I can share. Very large original 11x14 shot of the Erie baseball team playing at an unidentified ball park circa 1910-ish. What I really love about this photo is all the detail that can be found on this glorious day. From the elevated railway in the outfield over looking the game working as a grandstand so many by standers can enjoy play, to the band behind home plate playing their hearts out. Just a lot going on here. Oh and the large tree's out in center field that are in play are a nice touch as well. Good times!!








Now nicely framed and safe from the elements.......

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Thanks for the kind words Ben. Your portrait shots are amazing. Me, I do love the stadium shots. Here's another I can share. Very large original 11x14 shot of the Erie baseball team playing at an unidentified ball park circa 1910-ish. What I really love about this photo is all the detail that can be found on this glorious day. From the elevated railway in the outfield over looking the game working as a grandstand so many by standers can enjoy play, to the band behind home plate playing their hearts out. Just a lot going on here. Oh and the large tree's out in center field that are in play are a nice touch as well. Good times!!








Now nicely framed and safe from the elements.......

Tony,

Awesome photos!!! Is that tree present in right field (3rd photo from top) in play? If so, would make for some interesting calls and catches.

Craig

[3-2-count]

Thanks Craig. Yep, in play and quite the obstacle if you ask me. I see a total of 4 tree's in play in the outfield, but this large one really stands out. I would think any pop up to the outfield would have every player watching over their shoulder for a possible collision with that thing. And who say's player's of yesteryear didn't have skills of today's players!!

[Forever Young]

Jeff, that Herbie is fantastic.. crystal clear.. wonderful image. Thanks for showing us.

Lance, the story of Charlie definitely makes me look at the photo harder and appreciate it more. I hope you have mor eto add

Below are two of my Joe Jacksons

1) "Trophies" by Paul Thompson
-Joe is shown with two trophies he won in 1917, the trophy on the right he won in Boston by throwing a baseball 396 feet, in competition against the best long-distance throwers in the American and National leagues. He broke all records for throwing a baseball the farthest. The trophy on the left is for outbatting Ty Cobb in a critical series in 1917. The picture of Joe was taken will he was traveling back to his native South after the baseball season , he stopped long enough between trains to pose for this picture. These trophies are still in the Jackson family..............

2) By GG BAIN -used for the 1914 B18 blanket

[bobfreedman]

Those photos of Jackson are awesome Ben, it was a pleasure talking to you today as well!

[HRBAKER]

Someone with better knowledge of uniforms than I can narrow this down, I'm certain this is late teens to early 20's.

[jerseygary]

The Eddie Collins is from 1926, it's the only year the Sox used that particular road uniform.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by jerseygary

The Eddie Collins is from 1926, it's the only year the Sox used that particular road uniform.

Thanks Gary!

[packs]

Here's Hans LObert on Opening Day 1915.




Bob Ewing and Monte Beville 1903




The Babe signing some bats for soldiers

[Forever Young]

Packs, great stuff...a wonderful photo of Ruth signing a boat load of items...weird how people are so surprised that there are so many Ruth signed items ou there. I have seen so many photos with piles of baseballs he was signing. This one is neat/special because of the bats. I love it!

Jeff, I love the Baker Conlon!!! Here are a couple on my Eddie Collins...

1) by GG BAIN
2) by CHARLIE CONLON

[HRBAKER]

Nice pair of Collins.'
Handsome devil wasn't he?

[Marckus99]

great photos guys!!!!!!

[HRBAKER]

[3-2-count]

Great pics everyone. Is it just me or does every photo you see of Baker look like he's got something sneaky up his sleeve? His facial expression never changed.

[Greenmonster]

A couple of real photo postcards....I never hear of RPPCs being referred to as Type I photos, they meet the criteria don't they?

[prewarsports]

Real photo postcards can be type 1 photos but not all of them. All the amtuer ones are, but some are "technically" not. It ALL depends on whether it was developed from the original negative or not, a hang up most people dont care about to be 100% honest with you. People use "Type 1" interchangably with "orignal" or "vintage" but A LOT of photos (included many ancapsulated as type 1) are not actually type 1 under the strictest definitions.

Having said that, you postcard of Fenway with the players identified is certainly a type 1, assuming the back is of the proper age and it was not developed later on. Your Hilltop park probably is not, depending on whether the lettering was applied to the negative or whether it was developed, words added to a print and then a photo taken of that print to make others with the words on it. Those are some ornate letters to have been either etched, or written backwards on a glass playe negative for it to be a real "type 1". It will grade a "type 1" for sure but I bet it is actually not which is why that system is flawed.

(note: I dont hate the system and Henry and others who helped develop it did the best with what knoweldge they had at the time, but there are loop holes in it that can make Lots of problems if you get hung up on the number system when buying postcards, composites, and news service photos)

Rhys

[Runscott]

Two by Paul Thompson: Buck Weaver and Armando Marsans.

The Waner brothers - looks like Thompson, but I don't know who took it.

[Greenmonster]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Real photo postcards can be type 1 photos but not all of them. All the amtuer ones are, but some are "technically" not. It ALL depends on whether it was developed from the original negative or not, a hang up most people dont care about to be 100% honest with you. People use "Type 1" interchangably with "orignal" or "vintage" but A LOT of photos (included many ancapsulated as type 1) are not actually type 1 under the strictest definitions.

Having said that, you postcard of Fenway with the players identified is certainly a type 1, assuming the back is of the proper age and it was not developed later on. Your Hilltop park probably is not, depending on whether the lettering was applied to the negative or whether it was developed, words added to a print and then a photo taken of that print to make others with the words on it. Those are some ornate letters to have been either etched, or written backwards on a glass playe negative for it to be a real "type 1". It will grade a "type 1" for sure but I bet it is actually not which is why that system is flawed.

(note: I dont hate the system and Henry and others who helped develop it did the best with what knoweldge they had at the time, but there are loop holes in it that can make Lots of problems if you get hung up on the number system when buying postcards, composites, and news service photos)

Rhys

Thank you for taking the time to respond and providing details of what constitutes a Type I photo.

[HRBAKER]

Rhys,
Agreed that I no longer get too hung up with the "squishiness" of the "Type 1/2/3" designations. My issue is that they are oft/mostly misused by sellers trying to hype and overvalue their stock.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Real photo postcards can be type 1 photos but not all of them. All the amtuer ones are, but some are "technically" not. It ALL depends on whether it was developed from the original negative or not, a hang up most people dont care about to be 100% honest with you. People use "Type 1" interchangably with "orignal" or "vintage" but A LOT of photos (included many ancapsulated as type 1) are not actually type 1 under the strictest definitions.

Having said that, you postcard of Fenway with the players identified is certainly a type 1, assuming the back is of the proper age and it was not developed later on. Your Hilltop park probably is not, depending on whether the lettering was applied to the negative or whether it was developed, words added to a print and then a photo taken of that print to make others with the words on it. Those are some ornate letters to have been either etched, or written backwards on a glass playe negative for it to be a real "type 1". It will grade a "type 1" for sure but I bet it is actually not which is why that system is flawed.

(note: I dont hate the system and Henry and others who helped develop it did the best with what knoweldge they had at the time, but there are loop holes in it that can make Lots of problems if you get hung up on the number system when buying postcards, composites, and news service photos)

Rhys

+1

A couple other thoughts on the subject:

I might also add that there are at least some instances where a more ornate design can be applied to the negative by stamping directly onto the negative, in which case the stamped image or text appears white in the developed photo due to the ink of the stamp blocking light from passing through the negative in that area during the developing process. George Burke applied his studio stamp to his earlier images in this way so that it appears in the obverse image, and I have one of his early negatives (when he was still using glass plates) that has his stamp applied this way. I have also had several of his 8x10's though that were hand-lettered as Rhys describes for duplication, along with the matching postcard-sized 2nd Generation print that then had the lettering "in" the image after being re-shot. In that case, with the reprint being smaller, there was little to no noticeable degradation of the image, though you could in fact see faint traces of the guide lines he laid down on the original so that his lettering would be straight.

In looking at the print that appears in a photo, if the print is black and very neat, it seems to me that there would be very little chance of that having been done on the original negative (since to have black text, you would have to etch, scratch, or otherwise completely remove any obscuring matter so that light would pass through the negative cleanly to produce the black text). With white text, it's still more likely for it to be written (or painted) on the original photo and re-shot, especially the neater the printing (as Rhys also pointed out).

Now, enough discussion, and back to our regularly-scheduled show-and-tell

This one is of Joe Schepner of the 1929 Knoxville Smokies, which goes along with my penchant for obscure and minor league player images, as well as being tied to the East Tennessee city that I grew up in:

[Ulidia]

Not the most aesthetically pleasing of photos and has been pre-loved over the years but, given the year and the Manhattan location, fits in nicely with the theme.

Opening day at the Polo Grounds, April 1929 (Phillies @ Giants).

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

Not the most aesthetically pleasing of photos and has been pre-loved over the years but, given the year and the Manhattan location, fits in nicely with the theme.

Opening day at the Polo Grounds, April 1929 (Phillies @ Giants).

Neat skyline in that one! I had to stare at it for several seconds before I finally decided that there wasn't a large rectangle cut from the top of the photo. It's still messing with my eyes, and I think it's time for bed...

[Scott Garner]

Great thread guys!

I've shown this photo on net54 before, but here is an original photo of 1922 no-hit pitcher Jesse Barnes of the NY Giants.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by packs

Here's Hans LObert on Opening Day 1915.




Bob Ewing and Monte Beville 1903




The Babe signing some bats for soldiers

Packs, Great picture of the Babe signing those bats. If you would have asked me yesterday I would have said it was doubtful the Babe signed any bats and if he did it might have been one or two, but this really sheds new light on that. Very cool.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Great thread guys!

I've shown this photo on net54 before, but here is an original photo of 1922 no-hit pitcher Jesse Barnes of the NY Giants.

Nice one Scott! I love shots of players in those old sweaters.

[Bumpus Jones]

Dick Hoblitzell - Spring Training with Cincinnati 1913

Hal Chase - Circa 1918 (Conlon)

Edd Roush 1923 (Bain)

[David Atkatz]

Willie Keeler, 1903:



Hilltop Park, 1904:





Some Highlanders on Lookout Mountain, Tenn., in 1908. (Photo labelled by Neal Ball.)

[Hankphenom]

The guys sitting on that rock are nuts!

[David Atkatz]

"The guys" include Willie Keeler, Hal Chase, Clark Griffith, and Neal Ball.

[GKreindler]

Always loved that Keeler shot, David. It's definitely one that I have on the queue to paint - he had such a wonderful face. I have a great shot of Hal Chase from the same session/day, too. I was able to land similar ones from the Chicago History Museum, but of course, those were modern reprints.

Can't beat those old Highlanders uniforms, either. It's amazing to think that it changed virtually every year.

Bravo!

Graig

[David Atkatz]

Thanks, Graig. If you're gonna paint it, I'll buy it!
BTW, you're in France! Get off the net! (Yeah, yeah, I know it's one in the morning. But still.)

[Greenmonster]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

"The guys" include Willie Keeler, Hal Chase, Clark Griffith, and Neal Ball.

Amazing photo, I was really enjoying the Hilltop photo and then scrolled down

[GKreindler]

David,

But...ahhh...err...You're right. I got nothin'.



Graig

[Forever Young]

Nice photos everyone. David... that rock photo is absolutely Killer.

I should probably clean this one up a bit and take a high res scan as this one doesn't do it justice(editorial marks around body ect).

It is the year of the Great Depression dated March 11, 1929.

I love it as it shows a bit of the development process(clamps on the negative) and also shows a photographer in the background taking a pic of the babe and seemingly you! There should be(or was) another photo out there taken of the Babe taking a pic of this photographer taking a picture. Say that ten times fast...
It would be cool to find that photo.

[packs]

I'm glad people are digging the Babe signing bats photo. It's my favorite photo. Not only for the Babe, but it was taken on my birthday July 22.

[kdixon]

1920 World Series

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by ballist68

Dick Hoblitzell - Spring Training with Cincinnati 1913

Hal Chase - Circa 1918 (Conlon)

Edd Roush 1923 (Bain)

Wow Chris! There are some monster photos in this group.
The photo of Hal Chase especially is AWESOME!

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Willie Keeler, 1903:



Hilltop Park, 1904:





Some Highlanders on Lookout Mountain, Tenn., in 1908. (Photo labelled by Neal Ball.)

Great photos David!!!

[David Atkatz]

Thanks, Scott.