Anyone know about HVAC?

[scooter729]

Would anyone know about HVAC services? I'm trying to figure out if an estimate I received for a furnace and central air conditioner unit to be installed is fair, so I figured I'd throw it out to see if there are any folks on here who would know anything on that front.

Thanks!
Scott

[sdkammeyer]

I'm not a licensed HVAC guy or anything but as a rental property owner I know more about HVAC than I care to know
What ya got??

[scooter729]

Thanks Steve - let's give it a shot. Any thoughts??

PROPOSAL:
To remove old gas furnace and A/C unit.

To furnish and install one (1) York 2-Stage Gas Furnace, Model #TM9V040A10MP11 (96% efficient), one (1) 3-ton A/C Coil, Model #PC36A3XN1 and one (1) York 2-ton Condenser, Model #YCJF24S41S1.
To furnish and install insulated sheet metal duct work to connect new furnace to existing duct work.
To furnish and install one (1) Trion Air Bear Filtration System.
To furnish and install 2" PVC for flue exhaust and combustion air intake.
To furnish and install gas piping and electrical work to connect new system to existing gas and electrical lines.
To furnish and install refrigeration piping to connect new indoor A/C coil and outside condenser to existing refrigeration piping.
TOTAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $8,450.00

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Thanks Steve - let's give it a shot. Any thoughts??

PROPOSAL:
To remove old gas furnace and A/C unit.

To furnish and install one (1) York 2-Stage Gas Furnace, Model #TM9V040A10MP11 (96% efficient), one (1) 3-ton A/C Coil, Model #PC36A3XN1 and one (1) York 2-ton Condenser, Model #YCJF24S41S1.
To furnish and install insulated sheet metal duct work to connect new furnace to existing duct work.
To furnish and install one (1) Trion Air Bear Filtration System.
To furnish and install 2" PVC for flue exhaust and combustion air intake.
To furnish and install gas piping and electrical work to connect new system to existing gas and electrical lines.
To furnish and install refrigeration piping to connect new indoor A/C coil and outside condenser to existing refrigeration piping.
TOTAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $8,450.00

Hi Scott-

Just a couple of things....York is a good brand, so that's a plus (they aren't trying to sell you a cheap brand that will give you problems two to three years from now).

If they are charging you to remove old gas furnace & A/C unit, in my opinion that's a bunk charge. You are giving them business and the removal goes with the territory, and it's not that hard to do. Just my opinion, I did this type of work for a brief while. We never charged to remove or haul away old units.

They may have to have the sheet metal duct work built by an outside sheet metal company-not sure how it is back east but we used to have a company that would build any specific type of sheet metal/duct work, so that would be a legitimate charge (doesn't sound like there's too much space to connect?).

Furnish and install PVC ,,,, PVC is relatively cheap, I'd question what that charge is about.....it just sounds like they are itemizing things to make it sound like they are doing more than an average install, where most of these things are just part of "the install"

"To furnish and install gas piping and electrical work to connect new system to existing gas and electrical lines."- Very easy to do, normal part of install.

"To furnish and install refrigeration piping to connect new indoor A/C coil and outside condenser to existing refrigeration piping."- OK- here's where you need to ask a few key questions-*If they are installing a unit that uses the same type of refrigerant as your old unit, than connecting everything to your existing refrigeration piping is ok. If your new unit uses different refrigerent than your old one, they may be planning to "clean" your existing piping which can be a problem if they don't do it correctly, because you CAN NOT MIX DIFFERENT TYPES OF REFRIGERANT. Even a few drops of your old refrigerent left in your pipes when introducing a different new refrigerant can corrode your piping and eat through the copper, and screw your system up. If you have a rookie doing the job, this could be a problem. An old school tech would know how to do it, but beware of a "newbie"

So, make sure you find out if the new system uses same refrigerant as the old one. Normally, they should run all new copper piping if it's a different refrigerant. Some places just "blow out" the old refrigerant(out of the piping), and, well, it's kind of "risky".

I don't know about the Trion Air Bear System, I did this type of work for one summer straight out of a crash course 3 1/2 month class (going to school at night after working all day) and I did great in all of the written exams and in class tech work, but being out in the field (as a newbie) for one summer here in Vegas made me realize this work was not for me , so I've forgotten alot of what I learned.

Usually, from my experience, they try to charge double of what the unit costs them- 50% parts 50% labor. If they do this, you may have room to negotiate down on the "labor",,,,not all places will budge, but you can try.

All of that being said, we paid about $8,000.00 for our split system York almost 5 years ago, and are very happy with the performance. They didn't itemize everything out, it was more of a bottom line price (a bit high for out here but our air handler is in the wall instead of the ceiling, not as common so costs more). This covered anything and everything that needed to be done.

Hope this helps, and sorry for long ramble-

Sincerely, Clayton

[sdkammeyer]

wow, I just woke up and saw all that
I definitely can't argue with Clayton, and it sounds like he has way more experience than I do as well.

[scooter729]

WOW, this is extremely helpful - much appreciated for all of the great insight!!!

[steve B]

When we had to replace the boiler in our house it ran just over 9000 including an indirect hot water heater.

Same cost when the electronic low water cutoff failed after about 2 years. No warranty from Weil-McLain either since it was an electronic part that failed. (The new one has an old fashioned float switch)


I'd be ok with them itemizing like they did.

One of the quotes I got was from the gas company. They talk big about giving a free burner when you switch from oil. But it went like this
sales guy: sure, free burner. You just have to have your electrician wire it, and a steam fitter for the steam pipes, and someone to bring in the new boiler....
Me: Wait, you don't install it?
Sales guy: yes! We bolt it to the boiler.
Me: But I need something like 3-4 other contractors to hook it up? You don't do the whole install?
Sales guy: No, we just bring in a new burner. You're on your own for the rest if it.

I got rid of gas altogether. A choice I'm very happy with. The indirect HW heater is so well insulated it holds enough heat to be lukewarm 24 hours after losing power. And it's all stainless, so no replacing it every 10 years or worrying about it failing.

At least with the itemizing you know they're either doing the whole job or are in charge of any subcontractors.

Steve B

I did industrial repairs for a 10+ years and wrote a lot of quotes like that.

[scooter729]

Thanks Steve - great to hear your additional info....

Appreciate it!

[teetwoohsix]

Yeah, sorry about the long reply was having trouble sleeping.

Steve brought up a great point, which is about warranties,,,,I think York may have a 5 year warranty on their systems, and when you are negotiating the cost of all of this, you should ask them to include an equal warranty from the installer for labor as well as parts= 5 year parts & labor warranty. The parts come from the manufacturer, so it's no cost to them (I can only go by how it works out here) & if they stand by their work they should offer the equal labor.

Itemizing on the paperwork as to what they are going to do is ok, but itemizing each of those things and adding a particular price to each one, well, that's new to me. A lot of that work HAS to be done to make the unit function, therefore, it's a normal part of the install. Maybe they do it different back east, and if so that would explain why that sounds foreign to me.

Always check with the BBB as well to see if they have complaints against them, and if they do, do they resolve them. I was shocked when we were searching to see who we would use. Some of the companies I thought were the best had 15+ complaints against them We found a company that had zero complaints. Also, ask the company if their employees are NATE certified. It is a plus if they are, that means they are going the extra mile to have their technicians staying up to date with continuing education (to keep up with modern technology coming out and safety rules and regs that can periodically change).

One last thing (wheeew) It's hard sometimes to get prices from A/C supply houses when it comes to UNITS, because depending on the amount of business a contractor does with the supply house, they all seem to have different rates. It's easier to find prices on single repair items, like a fan motor, but it's difficult as a non- contractor to get prices on systems/units. I was checking through an old supply book and the only thing that doesn't have listed prices are the units/systems

Hope this info helps, keep us posted

Sincerely, Clayton

[old-baseball]

I had a top of line energy efficient Carrier system insalled two years ago that was just about $10K. Got refunded about half through my taxes for the energy efficient installation so it only cost me $5K in total. You may want to check to see if the federal government still has the program going.

[scooter729]

Thanks Kevin - I knew about the tax breaks but it wasn't fresh in my mind, so I certainly will see about my options on that front!