Which of these two Minor League sets has the fewest remaining examples?

[Vintagecatcher]

With regards to these two Minor League Cabinet sets, which set has the fewest remaining examples: Old Mill Cabinets (H801-7) or Obak Cabinets (T4)?

I have always been curious as to how many examples of individual players still exist on average with these two Minor League sets.

Anyone willing to guess?

Here are my examples from each set with their smaller counterparts.


Patrick

[Bridwell]

Those are some awesome cards. Congrats!

It seems nobody is attempting any guesses yet. Both of these cabinet types are quite scarce and hard to obtain even a type card of. It seems to me the Old Mill cabinets are extremely scarce. Over the years I've rarely seen any being sold and rarely any specific player more than once.

The Obak T4 Cabinets seem a little more common and a few players I've seen come up for sale 3-4 times over the years. So I'm guessing the T4's are a bit more common to find. Thanks for sharing the scans. Very nice!

[Vintagecatcher]

Hi Ron,

I have been working on putting together a virtual library of scans of these two sets.

Here is a scan of my first T4 Cabinet, John Tiedemann, which was trimmed to the oval . While many of the T4 Obak Cabinets used images similar to the players 1911 Obak cards, you can see the T4 Obak Cabinet image includes a shot of John Tiedemann holding a ball while his 1911 Obak card does not.


Thanks again,


Patrick

[wonkaticket]

Good question…if I had to put money down on a bet…I may lean towards H801-7’s being a bit tougher. But that’s a total guess. Being tougher used a bit casually though as both types have been absent from major old time collections or those major collections having a single example etc. Both are very tough and very cool.

Great cards Patrick!

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Agree with John. I've seen a few small groups of T4's being offered for sale, but I've never seen more than one or two H801-7's ever offered at one time. But I'm saying this from memory, which is getting creakier by the year.

[brianp-beme]

Over the years I have definitely noticed a lot more of the Obak cabinets. However, I also have a PCL collecting bent, so that might make them pop up in my mind's eye more readily (very familiar with how the regular issue Obaks look compared to the Old Mill issues).

In conclusion I would say T4's beat out H801-7 (even the ACC designation is barely recognizable) by a decent amount. They are both tough to come by, for crying out loud and a popsicle stick.

Brian

[wonkaticket]

Brian, please watch your language. This is a family place.

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks for the comments gentlemen.

Good to see you back on the board Barry!

In September of 2010, Steve Verkman had 19 OMCs in his Cleansweep Auction. Unfortunately, he sold them as a single lot.

Likewise, Lew Lipset had a large auction of 22 T4s in his April 2005 auction, which he sold as individual lots. My Berry T4 sold in that auction.

I'm pretty sure that multiple examples exist for the Weaver T4 and the OMC Laughlin which has at least two examples. I also remember the Revelle collector mentioning that there are probably at least 4 Revelle Cabinets known.

I am putting together a virtual library of scans from both sets. Don't have it completed yet, but I guess that around 40-45 examples from each set are known. Of course there could be much larger holdings hidden in old time collections.


Patrick

[Leon]

My vote, from watching the hobby quite a bit over the last 17 yrs, is that there are more T4s than Old Mill Cabinets.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Patrick. Didn't remember the Verkman lot, but I still think OM's are scarcer.

[wonkaticket]

From what I have gathered on T4’s there seems to be about 6 players that have a few copies floating in T4. They are Shehan, Carlisle, Weaver, J Ryan, Mundorff and Kuhn.

I’m sure there are others but the above I have confirmed pictures of. I have about 52 images of these some dups if you would like.

In regards to Weaver there are 3 1/2 known copies that I’m aware of one with back damage from a scrap book. Mine below and one with a pin hole where the Weaver is crooked in the oval frame, also has minor back damage I was told. I have heard about a trimmed to the oval version like your Tiedemann but haven’t seen it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Interesting to note that on two of the Weavers mine and the back damaged one. The bats appear on the right whereas most T4’s the bats appear on the left. I have identified 5 T4’s where the bats are on the right the bulk of the rest are all on the left.

The 5 with bats on the right are Spencer, Weaver (2), Moskiman, Shehan (1).



Doubt it’s of any major significance but thought it was neat.

Cheers,

John

[baseballart]

I can't comment on the numbers between the two groups, but on the T4s, I've never seen a Victoria or Vancouver example. I believe the standard catalog lists a Victoria player (Dashwood?), but I don't know anyone who has ever seen one as well.

Max

[Vintagecatcher]

John,

That's a beautiful Buck Weaver T4!

Even the cropping and tilt of the photo is different on the Weavers T4s.

I would be willing to bet that each was created individually once the company received the 50 coupons and the request for a particular player.

I noticed also that the color on the background cardboard surrounding the oval comes in a wide range of colors or shades of grey.

Thanks again to all for your responses.


Patrick

[Vintagecatcher]

If you look closely at the bottom right of my Berry Cabinet you will notice a couple of very small marks. What it is is the top of the number 74, which is the number used on the Obak Coupon for Berry.


Patrick

[Michael Peich]

Thanks for starting this thread, Patrick. I'll weigh in with one more example of an OM cabinet. I agree with Barry, John, and Leon--I think the OM cabinets are much scarcer. That being said, John's Obak cabinets are gorgeous, especially the Weaver, which I have had the privilege of examining.

John's point on variations is interesting and can be traced, perhaps, to different poses being taken for the same player. I am fairly certain that photographers took multiple photos of each minor league player, and then sold their photos to the cigarette manufacturers: Old Mill, Red Sun, Contentnea, etc. (See the T209-II article that I wrote with Tim Newcomb in the latest Old Cardboard) The result is that a photo of a player in one set might have an almost imperceptible visual difference from another photo of the same player in a different set. There could even be alterations to the same photo. I have included my OM cabinet of Simmons along with the T209-II and T210-7 versions of Simmons. In each card the same photo is reproduced. Upon closer inspection you'll see that the ball in the T209 version lays on the ground, outside his glove (I think the original placement), while the OM and 210-7 show the ball in his glove. Moving the ball could have been achieved with a crude version of alteration, i.e., physically moving the ball in the photo--the ball looks fake in both the OM and 210-7. My point is that the differences are often slight, but, I am certain, go back to different, but similar photos being used, and in some cases altering the original photo. Enjoy.

Cheers,
Mike

[wonkaticket]

Mike very cool, the stuff you guys have picked up on T209 is really great. For those who have hadn't had a chance to take a peek at Mike's article on T209's please do its a great read.

[Brian Weisner]

Hi Mike,
Nice... Here are my three of Richardson: No ball T209, both feet on ground,R on cap, glove... lots of differences...



Be well Brian

PS I have a list of the Old Mill Cabs that I will post in a bit... I'm pretty sure they are tougher than the Obak's....