Need help identifying and dating old photograph

[BOB52]

Howdy ~

I am a brand new member (actually more of a guest) and this is my first post. Hopefully I'm placing my inquiry in the appropriate forum. It pertains to an old photograph I acquired recently and need some help with. And even though I have already done quite a bit of research, I still don't know much more about it than when I started. What I'm hoping to find out here is ...

1. How old it is? (Approximate).
2. Where it was taken?
3. If anyone recognizes the player?

I'm not concerned with value right now, as that depends entirely on whether or not it can be acurately dated and identified.

Here's what I know about it so far ... Part of which was determined by examining it under a x20-Power Jeweler's Diamond Scope. (Also please see inserted pictures).

1. The paper itself is super thin and might be of the albumen type which was popular in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

2. The image is a sepia (brownish) tone.

3. Overall the paper measures 2 3/4" x 2 1/4" With the oval aspect being just a tad bit smaller.

4. There are no water marks or any other identifying marks on the paper.

5. The Player's jersey is collared, in addition to wearing a two-toned, short bill cap - high-top, black shoes - a looped belt and baggy uniform. His socks might be two-toned black lower and light upper, but the upper part might be his bare leg or a continuation of his pants - its hard to say which. There are no visible numbers or patches on the uniform.

6. Just above the ankle on his right sock is what appears to be a white circle. But I'm sure he is not wearing stirrup socks because the forward left foot is different, which the Diamond Scope confirmed.

7. The field (which is hand-colored a barely visible green) looks more like a cow pasture than a baseball field.

8. In the background is a grain elevator and some other buildings. The Diamond Scope revealed that the top word of the three words on the main building is the word GRAIN.

9. The trees appear to not have leaves.

10. The metal frame that the photo was mounted in when I got it is made of tin and is oval shape. The oval part of the frame and the oval part of the photo match up well and I believe they are original to one another.

11. The frame has small, hand painted flowers at the 9:00-12:00 and 3:00 o'clock positions, and is just slightly larger than the photo itself.

That's about all I can think of to mention, other than to say my best guess regarding a date is circa 1905-1910. But this is only a guess based on my recent research.

And even though identifying the player would be great, the real emphasis is with dating the uniform and/or identifying the location of the grain elevator? I have already looked at a zillion grain elevator pictures and gave up on that, but was still hoping that someone here might recognize it. If the grain elevator can be identified, then the rest of the puzzle will likely fall into place on it's own.

I hope I have provided enough information and that I have not overstayed my welcome here. I suppose I could just as easily have said ...

"Does anybody recognize anything about this old baseball photograph? If so, please let me know."

Thanks in advance for your time and interest.

BOB52

PS ~ I am going to post this as is for now until I can figure out how to insert pictures. I'll be back. Thanks.

[jgmp123]

I don't see any pics...

[BOB52]

Sorry bout that ... Here are the pictures I was having a problem with earlier.

BOB52

[jgmp123]

Looks like a farm game...possibly a self-portrait or family portrait..Any markings on the back?

[BOB52]

Thanks for taking a look ...

There are no identifying marks on it (front or back) of any kind. I suspect farm or minor league myself, but this is just a guess. The uniform seems complete and at least somewhat professional / semi-professional. I guess its the "oval" aspect of both the frame and the photo itself that makes me think its something "special," and not just an ordinary picture someone would take of a relative. For that you'd think they would have posed instead of an action shot.

I'm also curious if anyone has ever seen a framed (baseball) photograph just like it? I've searched endlessly and have not been able to find another "oval" baseball photo other than those that have an oval matting placed atop a squareish photo. I realize there are lots of "cards" that have oval pictures, but this is not a card and is a true photograph.

Thanks.

Bob

[jgmp123]

Because of the design of frame and photo, I would suspect it's early 1900's...possibly 1905-1920...Hopefully some others can help shed some light

Take a look at this photo...I feel it could be close to the same time period...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=50105

[BOB52]

jpmg123 ~

Thanks again, I appreciate your help. I've seen the old photo you posted and jillions of others similar to it, but not one exactly like mine, which may or may not even exist. As for the date, I've been told by non-experts that the uniform could be anywhere from the late 1880s to the early 1920s. Is it possible to narrow this down? Collars pretty much disappeared from jerseys around 1915-1916. (At least that's what I've read and seen).

As a suggestion to anyone else who happens to take a look at this, I'd like to point out that I fully realize the odds of identifying the player are about a million to one. That's why I would like to re-emphasize the focus regarding ...

1. Date of the unifrorm to within ten years? (If this is even possible to do without guessing like I have been doing for the past week).

2. Location of the Grain Elevator? (Almost every state in the country had them).

Gracias'

Bob

[slidekellyslide]

Probably a town team player from around 1910...and you will never be able to identify the player or location. Very little value...frame is probably worth more than the photo.

[BOB52]

slidekellyslide ~

Thanks for the reply. Your no nonsense response is the type I was looking for and anticipating. I'm no expert whatsoever when it comes to baseball stuff, but it seems to me that an individual who is an expert would be able to tell in a heartbeat whether a certain style of baseball uniform was used in 1890 or 1920 without having to guess about it. It took me almost two weeks to come up with what you just said in two short sentences. But what am I supposed to do if someone comes along later with a different opinion than yours and claims there is some value and interest in my photo? Should I just ignore them and accept your evaluation as final? The reason I ask this is because I've encountered so many different opinions lately that my head is spinnig. In other words, is what you are telling me just an opinion or a fact based on years of experience?

By the way, I recently submitted a similar inquiry to the Baseball Hall of Fame Research Department and Tim Wiles and his photo crew are currently taking a look at what I sent them. Tim hasn't commented on anything specific yet, but did say they are currently trying to date the photo paper. I will post his findings here just as soon as I hear back from him, which he said might take two weeks.

Thanks again.

Bob

[BOB52]

Here's another picture of the grain elevator(s) just in case it still exist and is standing in someone's back yard. Irregardless of the photo's value, I think it would be cool (if possible) to know where it was taken.

BOB52

[slidekellyslide]

I'm not trying to be rude, but you are wasting your time trying to identify this without any provenance whatsoever...and I find it incredulous that the Hall of Fame would even look at this photo and tell you that they would work on it...also you don't need to date the paper...this photo is circa 1910 in anytown, USA and that's as much as you will ever know. It's a $10 photo with the frame.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by bob52

here's another picture of the grain elevator(s) just in case it still exist and is standing in someone's back yard. Irregardless of the photo's value, i think it would be cool (if possible) to know where it was taken.

Bob52

nimby:d

[BOB52]

I received an email from Tim Wiles / Baseball Hall of Fame this morning, who said my photo was taken ...

"between 1900 and 1909."

He did not elaborate as to how they arrived at this particular date range, but I suspect there is something specific about 1909 as opposed to 1910. (And because I don't want to bug him again, I will just accept his evaluation at face value and leave it at that). He also said they were unable to identify the player because of the camera angle, which doesn't reveal enough of the player's facial features.

I appreciate all of the contributions and will take each one under consideration during the course of my ongoing research. I guess any additional identification will boil down to the quandry of my being able to identify the grain elevator, if that's even possible, which presently seems slim at the very best.

Thanks again to everyone.

Bob

[BOB52]

PS ~

Tim Wiles just sent me a quick follow-up reply to summarize by saying my photo was taken ...

"Sometime during the first decade of 1900."

Which is close enough for me and what I call circa 1905.

Bob

[BOB52]

Below is a reverse sketch of what the grain elevator in the baseball photo might look like if viewed from the opposite side. Compare it to the Attica, Indiana grain elevator. I'm not saying they are exact, just suggesting they are similar and may be a clue as to the style of elevator to look for. But the big question is whether the grain elevator in the baseball photo is one building or two seperate buildings? (one foreground ~ one background) or (just one building like that pictured below)? Another key clue is that little side roof on the upper portion.