T206 - Doyle N.Y. Nat'l - info??

[taborton101]

Hey everyone - I'm hoping someone has a good book / reference on the Doyle N.Y. Nat'l, specifically, some history on how it came to be the card that it is today...ie, I know there are only a handful of them, but why has this card's variation taken on such a life of its own??...there are many other 'error' cards, or variations, where it was quickly caught and corrected during printing, on numerous T206's that I've seen over the years, and for which I only know of a handful or less of people who own or have seen that particular variation (e.g., names incorrectly spelled, missing team names, missing logos etc.)...yet these are viewed as commonplace and can be bought cheaply. Why is the 'Nat'l' so special??

Any info / refs. are appreciated.

[Abravefan11]

There are only two cards in the T206 set that were errors and corrected during production, Doyle N.Y. Nat'l and Magie.

Many other players names were misspelled and Ellam was given the wrong team designation, but none of them were corrected like the Doyle and Magie. The other things I believe you're referring to are print anomalies or quality control issues and not actual changes made to the card. The Doyle error was caught quickly resulting in a small number of these cards being distributed. Less than 10 are known and that makes it the scarcest of the 524 subjects in the set.

[taborton101]

Thanks...I guess what I'm looking for is a reference / documentation / book on when, how, etc. these 2 errors were caught, and why these are the 'important errors'?...for example, as you mention, the Ellam error and numerous name misspellings and other anomalies that can be seen with many players...why were these not 'corrected' in the same way that, for example, Magee's name was corrected?

[barrysloate]

An error has to be caught to be corrected.

There are other errors too, such as the spelling of "Myers" and "Meyers" This misspelling occurred among different poses and none of them were corrected. But Tim knows more than I do, he can explain.

[ullmandds]

You won't find what you're looking for...only speculation!

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

An error has to be caught to be corrected.

There are other errors too, such as the spelling of "Myers" and "Meyers" This misspelling occurred among different poses and none of them were corrected.

I think that's exactly right Barry, that they just didn't know about them, but at this point why they corrected a few and not the others is speculation. In addition to the Doyle and Magie errors there are 23 other cards with misspelled names. Why weren't these corrected during production? Five players on six of the 23 cards have other poses in the set with their names spelled correctly like the Myers and Meyers Barry referenced.

[taborton101]

Thanks guys, that's my point, I'd love to learn more about how these 2 errors in particular became legends, and even if it's due to pure speculation which then spun into something much bigger, would be interested to read about the timeline, and details on how they go to their current status...the 'M(e)yer)' is another good example...and I've got a neat Marquard with red 'B' (looks like the old Boston logo), or maybe it's a red '8', right next to the NY logo - I know of at least 2 others with the same anomaly on the Marquard (ie, it's not a stamp or some other mark)...one of the things I love about this set are these little errors all over the place, and many that are very rare, yet...how did the Magie and Doyle Nat'l get to be worth thousands (or in Doyle's case, perhaps tens/hundreds of thousands)??

[Abravefan11]

Again those other things you mention like Marquard "B" are not changes made deliberately to the card.

The Marquard "B" was discussed and shown by several board members in a thread within the last year or so. It's an interesting mark (not a Boston B by the way) but not something added intentionally. Marquard "B" Thread

For a little more history on the Doyle error read this: Click Here

[barrysloate]

The Magie and Doyle errors became legends because the uncorrected versions are rare and expensive. If there were an equal number of "Magie" and "Magee" cards, and both were priced as commons, they wouldn't be legendary.

[steve B]

The Doyle error was an easy fix. They probably just went over the "natl" with a limestone crayon. So they found it early, fixed it quickly- probably didn't even need to remove the stone from the press, and went on printing.

Magie was a tougher fix, requiring the stone to be redone, or perhaps partly redone. If it was caught early, it might have been worth doing. I think the names were the only thing done in that brown color.
Maybe Magee saw the card and complained?

The other name/team problems may not have been caught till later, or not caught at all.

So if you're running the factory, and find a mistake after you've printed say 9000 of 10000 sheets do you have a new stone done to fix it? Then have to decide wether to ship the incorrect ones or 9000 wrong ones and 1000 right ones? Or do you just get like Sgt Schultz ( I see nothing!) and finish the print run and ship them?
Keeping in mind that these were pack stiffeners and just happened to have some sort of subject printed on them as a free giveaway, I'd finish the run and ship them if there wasn't a complaint.

Steve B

[barrysloate]

It was more important to meet production quotas and schedule deadlines than to make sure there were no spelling errors. This was business.

[taborton101]

So, what are thoughts on something like this (not talking about the asking price necessarily, but, just that I know of several errors like this, where names are misspelled, etc., and nobody seems to know of more than a handful of examples of the misspelling...)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Gus-Dop...item19ca2267c9

...so, if you're able to find a name misspelled, and submit to PSA for example, and find it is the only graded one known (ie, '1 of 1'), and have it slabbed with the misspelling called out in the description, does that put it in the same league as Magie? (ie, is this 'Dopner' worth anything?)

...also, has anyone figured out what the red 'B / 8', or whatever it is, is??

[barrysloate]

The jury is still out on these unintended printing glitches. They often sell for a lot of money, but not all serious T206 collectors embrace them. They differ from Doyle or Magie as they were not the result of a deliberate revision, but were caused by a foreign substance getting onto the plate and blocking a bit of the ink. Whether or not they are worth the money is subjective.

You're confusing genuine printing corrections with unintentional printing mishaps. Big difference.

[egbeachley]

The answer could be simply that after they fixed the Magee error, and the cost was submitted to the boss, they said "No more expensive fixes!"

[taborton101]

Here's my thought though...using the 'Dopner' one as just an example...the 'p' instead of an 'r' seems to be more than just a printing mishap caused by a foreign substance, etc. - PSA slabbed the 'p', so it would appear that the stone actually had 'Dopner' on it, and then later it was changed to 'Dorner' - ie, the 'p' was intentionally fixed to an 'r' at some point by the printer...so is this just an un-documented error that was intentionally corrected?...and, this is a '1 of 1', so apparently it's very rare...why isn't this talked about as much as Magie?...that's what I'd like to read more on...how did the Magie and Nat'l corrections become so legendary, when it would seem that there are other corrections that are similarly as rare, yet just weren't documented in the same way, for some reason...

[ullmandds]

the fact that psa slabbed it as such is meaningless!

[barrysloate]

Taborton (not your real name): I don't think that's true. First, as Peter mentioned, PSA are not experts. So forget about the label. I don't believe at all it was intentionally printed as Dopner and then corrected. I believe it's an "R" missing a serif. Again, I will defer to the board experts but I think that's the case.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I believe it's an "R" missing a serif.

Barry is correct. If one were to look at thousands of T206's noting every variance they will find many many examples of these printing defects. Some stand out more than others and a few like the Nodgrass have garnered more attention and a higher premium. Ultimately they are not variations like the Doyle and Magie.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by steve B

Magie was a tougher fix, requiring the stone to be redone, or perhaps partly redone. If it was caught early, it might have been worth doing. I think the names were the only thing done in that brown color.

Steve B

The name/team captions were printed during the brown color run for the image. The two cards below are good examples that show when the brown color pass was out of registration it effected the caption as well as other parts of the image.

[steve B]

Those are cool! I picked up a Barry recently that has no name and decent registration. There's enough room at the bottom that the name should be there.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270837344974...84.m1439.l2649

I wanted the Schmidt, but it went a bit higher than I'd thought.

The missing names is what made me think the name was done in a separate pass. Seeing yours that's obviously not how it was done.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Regarding the Joe Doyle error card......this card was unknown (and known) in the hobby until circa 1987 when Bill Huggins found
one in a collection that he had acquired. When Bill revealed his Doyle, Larry Fritsch then revealed a Doyle error card that he had.
To date, only 8 legitimate examples of this card have been confirmed. There have been several fakes in circulation; and, at least
one of which has been graded.

What I find most interesting about this scarce T206 error card, is that its existence was known prior to Fritsch's and Huggins' dis-
coveries of this card in the 1980's. On display at the Univ. of Georgia is Senator Richard Russell's boyhood (circa 1910) Tobacco
card collection. Included in this 1000+ card collection is the Joe Doyle error card. Although, this display has been there for many
years, very few have seen it.

American Lithographic printed the 150 and 350 Series T206's first starting with the PIEDMONT brand. And, since the Magie and the
Joe Doyle errors were caught quickly, these two cards exist ONLY with the PIEDMONT 150 and PIEDMONT 350 backs, respectively.



Here is my "no-name" printing error card of Ray Ryan. Apparently, the Brown ink pass was missed on this one (hence, no caption).
There is a good likelihood that the 47 other OLD MILL Southern Leaguer's in this print run are also without their captions (and any
brown coloring).



TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

There is a good likelihood that the 47 other OLD MILL Southern Leaguer's in this print run are also without their captions (and any brown coloring).

TED Z

It's actually highly unlikely that all 48 of the southern leaguer's would be found with this color pass missing. It's definite that a majority of them would, as they would have been printed on the same sheet as the Ryan, but not all 48.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

It's definite that a majority of them would, as they would have been printed on the same sheet as the Ryan, but not all 48.

Let's see your proof of this ?

The OLD MILL and PIEDMONT Southern League subjects are both 48-subject series.


TED Z

[zljones]

Originally Posted by taborton101

Hey everyone - I'm hoping someone has a good book / reference on the Doyle N.Y. Nat'l, specifically, some history on how it came to be the card that it is today...ie, I know there are only a handful of them, but why has this card's variation taken on such a life of its own??...there are many other 'error' cards, or variations, where it was quickly caught and corrected during printing, on numerous T206's that I've seen over the years, and for which I only know of a handful or less of people who own or have seen that particular variation (e.g., names incorrectly spelled, missing team names, missing logos etc.)...yet these are viewed as commonplace and can be bought cheaply. Why is the 'Nat'l' so special??

Any info / refs. are appreciated.

This card first came to the public eye in 1987 in the "Sports Card Collectors Digest." You may want to see is that periodical is at a local library, but here is a link I found on google from an old REA auction that talks alot about it, and it mentions that 1987 periodical. http://blog.robertedwardauctions.com/?p=109

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Let's see your proof of this ?

Ted - I'm always more than happy to explain how I arrive at any conclusion but I'm going to refrain right now. I'm working on an article on this subject that should be out soon.