AB width?

[kllrbee]

Hey all,
I have just a few American Beauty backs so Im not all that familiar with them. Ive always heard they are narrower than other T206's.
Is there a standard size that they were cut though?
I sent in a Rhodes for grading and I got an "A", so I was just wondering if this was due to the narrow AB back or what.
Ill post up a scan of the card and you guys can let me know what you think.
Thanks.

[Abravefan11]

Typically grading companies allow for a variance of 1/16" from the standard card dimension of a common back T206. American Beauty backs were cut at least one additional time and this lead to even greater variance in their sizes. It's not uncommon for an authentic untrimmed example to receive a grade of Authentic due to it not meeting the TPG size requirements.

[kllrbee]

Thanks Tim,
Heres scans...

[Abravefan11]

I would be curious as to why it received and "A" grade and if it was due to it not meeting size requirements or something else all together.

It doesn't appear to be any thinner than this Sweeney example.

[rp12367]

I have this Schlei which has a Piedmont Back which is only as wide as a American Beauty back, I have compaired it to many raw AB cards. SGC gave it a number grade so I assume it's a factory miscut and not trimmed. Just wondering if other cards out there that are non-ab that are the same size.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by rp12367

Just wondering if other cards out there that are non-ab that are the same size.

Yes. If you look at enough T206's over time you will see a number of cards with noticeable size differences to their common counterparts. What should be a standard size card could be over sized or what some refer to as a "jumbo" T206. Some are found smaller like the one posted above and closer to the size of a regular AB back. American Beauty examples can be very narrow missing almost all of one or both borders, and others will be as large as a common T206.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by rp12367

I have this Schlei which has a Piedmont Back which is only as wide as a American Beauty back, I have compaired it to many raw AB cards. SGC gave it a number grade so I assume it's a factory miscut and not trimmed. Just wondering if other cards out there that are non-ab that are the same size.

Yes. This Marshall is roughly AB narrow. Not quite as wide as one I have, but as wide as a couple others. There's lots of size variance in the set. I had another card in the same batch rejected for undersize, that was short by less than the amount this one is narrow.
Steve B

[NYHighlanderFan]

Eight-count packs

[Fred]

I don't see anything wrong with the width of the Rhodes. Looks like other ABs I've seen. I'd resubmit and tell them why you're re-submitting.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

American Beauty backs were cut at least one additional time and this lead to even greater variance in their sizes.

Tim-Interesting comment and something that illustrates just how strange the AB sizing issue is. I have long thought the cards where shipped in uncut sheets along with the cigarette box flats and cut at the factory but if so why would another cut be made, presumably at the AB factory? Crazy monster.....

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I have long thought the cards where shipped in uncut sheets along with the cigarette box flats and cut at the factory but if so why would another cut be made, presumably at the AB factory?

From studying the confirmed front/back combination patterns we know sheets of front images were printed and then had the back ads applied. In the 350 Series the same printed front image sheets had AB 350 Frame, Cycle 350, Broad Leaf 350 and Drum ads applied. In the 350-460 group the AB 350 No Frame and Drum ads were applied to the same front image sheets. And lastly in the 460 Series it's possible the AB 460 and Uzit backs were applied to the same front image sheets.

This is important when studying the American Beauty cards because it shows the sheet configuration was not any different than any other T206. The narrower width had to come from at least one additional cut to reduce the width.

Why were they cut again? I don't know for sure but whatever the reason it wasn't a short lived practice that was abandoned. They continued with the extra cut through three different production groups. And given the extra labor required to thin the cards I have to believe they would have gone to a simpler solution had there been one or abandoned it all together had it not been imperative.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Interesting comment and something that illustrates just how strange the AB sizing issue is. I have long thought the cards where shipped in uncut sheets along with the cigarette box flats and cut at the factory but if so why would another cut be made, presumably at the AB factory? Crazy monster.....

Sorry to differ with you ole buddy....but, I can't imagine that uncut sheets of T206's were shipped to the Tobacco factories and cut at those facilities. The workers
at these factories were low-wage laborers who essentially sorted and packaged cigarettes (and other related tobacco products) as they rolled off the machinery.

In my opinion, the cutting of the cards was done professionally at American Litho. (ALC) in NYC. Actually, I wish your scenario was true. Because, then there would
be a higher probability of finding some uncut sheets of T206's out there in the hinterlands.


Regarding the narrower American Beauty cards, sometime back I posted an idea that ALC possibly printed this series with an additional card across a given sheet.
So that, in the cutting process, each card was narrower by approx. 1/16th of an inch.

Or, perhaps the factory producing the American Beauty cigarettes originally told ALC that they were intending to market a narrower pack containing 8 cigarettes.
Therefore, ALC anticipated this change by cutting the cards narrower.

However, we know that this was not so........here is a standard 10-cigarette pack.




TED Z

[toppcat]

Hi Ted

No offense taken-these AB's to me are one of the enduring mysteries of the Monster!