How to tell a Koester Bread from an E121 or W575?

[dougscats]

I ask this question only having learned about Koester Bread's last week, when I auctioned off an Ed Brown.

I have one card left from that lot, a Waite Hoyt, also with the same scrapbook/letter back that the Brown had, and I wonder if it's a Koester's.
I tried to do my homework this time, and Google brought me back to Net54:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...read+Babe+Ruth.

In this post, ellyn2005 maintains that the thickness of the card and the quality of the picture distinguish the Koesters from the W-575:

"... [Regarding] the differences between W575-1's, E121's and the 1921 Koester's Bread.

W575-1's..These cards have thinner stock, are grayer and do not have the clarity that E121's
or Koester's Bread [do] ... We do acknowledge that this 1921 Koester's Set is a similar issue to both,
kind of a hybrid but there are distinctive differences..

This subset [Koester's] had blank backs, similar to W575-1 but card stock is similar to E121..."

So, given the scan below, can you tell if this is a Koester's Bread?

It is thick, and the picture quality is pretty good, so, if ellyn2005 is right, I wouldn't think it's a W575.
I guess the only way I could tell whether or not it's an E121 would be to take the scrapbook/letter off the back.
But I hesitate to do that, being an amateur, thinking of using a handkerchief and a steam iron.

So, I put it to you, for your expertise and advice.

If it's a standard E121, I'm keeping it [in my eclectic hall of fame collection].
But should it turn out to be a Koester's, and presumably valuable, I'll most likely auction it right here, as good fortune would have it.

... Or maybe trade it for some T206's.

So, what do you think:

[bigfish]

Could you post a back scan?

[rhettyeakley]

The Brown card was easy because he was only found in the Koesters set--he wasn't printed at all by the American Caramel Co. as part of either the E121 series of 80 or 120.

The Hoyt was printed in both sets. The fact that they were found together probably means that the Hoyt is in fact a Koesters card (blank backed) but it is also entirely possible that the Hoyt could have an American Caramel back if it were to be soaked--as I can't tell through the thick paper if there is any printing on the back. So in short likely a Koester's card BUT it could be a E121 Series of 80 (if it is somewhat thicker) or E121 Series of 120 if the card is thinner (120 series was printed on thinner stock than the series of 80).

-Rhett

[dougscats]

So, can I take it that these cards are safe to soak?
[I know, for instance, that T206's and their kind are safe to soak.]

Any particular instructions/advice, particularly when drying?

I know there's always some risk, but the gamble is surely worth if it can be done. I'd appreciate anyone with knowledge in this area weighing in.

Thanks.

Doug

[rhettyeakley]

I'd be very careful if you did soak it because the E121's don't soak as well as some cards do. Also, you need to be aware that the ink on the extra paper on back will likely stain the card on back so I'd probably advise against it altogether. Whenever a card has been pasted right on top of ink on the paper it will run the risk of staining.

If you do put it up or auction here on this site I'd be more interested in it as is than if you soaked it.

[dougscats]

Thanks again, Rhett, and I'm listening to you.

Perhaps using an iron might work? [I can remember doing postage stamps that way when I was a kid.]--maybe dampening a handkerchief and putting it between the back of the card and the iron?

Maybe I should send it to a pro?--there are such, I believe, and right here on Net54--Maybe I should post another message, asking for such?

Rhett, you say you'd rather buy it as is, and I'd rather sell it that way.
But how much is the card worth: 1. If it's [relatively] conclusive that it is a Koester's Bread [if the paper on the back is removed and it's not an E121]? 2. If it's as is, where there is some circumstancial evidence that it is a Koester's but one can't be certain--How much are you willing to gamble on that?

I tried to check prices, but I'm not a VIP member and couldn't find out.

So, let's say I leave it as is. I'm not sure I want to put it up for auction as such. But I will field offers. You can post one or send me a pm while I decide what to do.

Again, I appreciate the board's help and expertise.

[dougscats]

Sorry for my procrastination, but I finally soaked it.

I was advised to immerse it in distilled water, which I did. The paper didn't come off easily, but I rubbed it gently and it came off slowly, like stubborn old wallpaper. It's still not a clean back, looks like pencil drawn on it, but there's no American Caramel Co.; it appears that it was originally a blank back, not an E121.

As we've pretty much ruled out the W575, that leaves it as a Koster's.
When it dries, I'll post a scan.

Here's my thinking as of now: For reasons already stated, I'll either trade or auction it here on Net54.
First, I'll field trade offers. I'll trade it for a big name T206 in decent [fair or better] condition, graded or ungraded. I may do better trading it than selling it if one of you has an extra T206 he's willing to part with. By big name, I mean Cobb, Johnson, Mathewson, Young, Speaker, or another hall of famer in that rarefied atmosphere. I do have a few of them [Cobb, bat on shoulder, Johnson, glove at chest, Mathewson, dark cap, Young, following through], but I need 75% of those names. If your card warrants it, i.e., is worth substantially more than the Hoyt, I'd be willing to add money.

I'm going to take trade offers for 7-10 days; if nothing knocks me out, I'll auction it. Please email me [my pm box is full!] at djdoremus@msn.com, and include scans if you can.

Thanks.

Doug

[rhettyeakley]

Doug, here is a scan of my Koester's Hoyt, which it sounds like yours is...


I know it says W575-1 and "Hand Cut" on the holder but it is not hand-cut and it is the Koester's Bread Waite Hoyt

[dougscats]

I've included new scans of the soaked Hoyt.

You'll notice that I didn't get off all of the scrapbook [see left side of scan, the written letter a, for example].
Also, when I soaked it, what I'm referring to as penicil markings were much darker--I thought it was the original surface, but apparently not--Apparently, there is still a very thin layer of something, glue, perhaps [?], over most of the rest of the card. I didn't want to rub any harder lest I destroy the integrity of the card. And I didn't think it was important to get off the rest of the scrapbook as the back of the card was marked anyway, and it wasn't going to improve the appearance.

Do I need to soak it again to prove that it isn't an E121? I wouldn't think so, but I could do it if enough of you think that I should.

Thanks again for all your help in this matter.

Doug

[yomass]

Rhett,
Isn't Jesse Burkett also a card unique to Koesters?

[rhettyeakley]

Richard, you are correct. The list I have above are cards that are currently listed in the W575-1 checklist in SCD--Burkett was removed a few years back as he is well known to have been a Koester's exclusive.

The known "exclusive" checklist is...Jesse Barnes
Howard Barry
"Ed." Brown
Jesse Burkett
"Bill" Cunningham
Alex Ferguson
"Chicken" Hawks
Fred Hoffmann
John Mitchell
Charles O'Leary (I've never seen this card but it appeared in that set that recently sold and it is on the known checklist)
William Piercy
Chas. Stengel

"exclusive positions" (this is the first time I'm outing these two as Koester's)
--John McGraw (standing) -Mgr. (he is "Manager" in E121 Series of 80 era sets, and new pose in 120 era of sets)
--Ross Young -R.F. (he isn't in Series of 80 era sets and is listed as O.F. in 120 era sets)