T206 Broad Leaf 460 and Red HINDU "twins"

[tedzan]

There are a possible 61 subjects in the 350/460 Series that can be found with a BROAD LEAF 460 back.
To date, approx. 50% of them have been confirmed.


The known BL 460 cards......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)........................an oddball 350/460 card that has no 350 backs
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


OK, the BL 460 are the rarest of the rare, but I think we can add a few more to this list. Show or tell
us of your Broad Leaf 460 cards ?

Following, will be 2 more lists......the 350/460 cards that most likely will not be found with the BL 460
back......and, a list of the possible cards that still may be found.


Thanks for participating.

TED Z

[tedzan]

No responses.....?

So, can we say that the other 32 subjects in the 350/460 series are BL 460 "No-Prints" ? ?

I think I have come up with several factors, that are 99% indicative of whether a card in this series
was printed with a BL 460 back, or not.

I will post it later.


TED Z

[egbeachley]

Ted, you may need to clarify. You mention 61 possibilities with 30 confirmed and 32 "no-prints".

[tedzan]

1st.......the T206's that were printed with Broad Leaf 460 are from the 350/460 series. There are 61 subjects in this series.
These cards are found with both 350 and 460 series T-brand backs. For example, the red portrait Cobb is found with 24 dif-
ferent backs.

2nd.......the Kleinow (Boston) card is originally from the 350/460 series; however, it is an anomaly in that this card was not
printed with any 350 series backs. Kleinow was traded to the Boston on 5/26/1910, and perhaps this explains why this card
does not exist with any 350 backs. Therefore, Kleinow is considered a 460-only series card.

Therefore: 61 - 29 (no Kleinow) = 32 (possible BL 460 No-Prints)

Does this clarify ? If not, I'll try again.


TED Z

[egbeachley]

Got it now. Thanks.

[tedzan]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm always fascinated by possible T206 "T-brand No-Prints". Simultaneously, I become frustrated
while putting together these sub-sets (i.e., SOVEREIGN, AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, etc.) because you never really know when these
"supposed" No-Prints will pop up in some find. After many years, we can determine with 99.9% certainty which cards are No-Prints.

If my research is correct, the following 28 cards will not be found with a BL 460 back. American Lithographic printed these 28 cards
with UZIT backs and AB 460 backs. But, for whatever reason, it appears that they did not print these cards with BL 460 backs.

There is an exception to this rule. The Cobb (bat off shoulder) has indeed been confirmed with UZIT and AB 460 backs. Also it has
been reported to have a BL 460 back. I haven't seen this F/B combo. Perhaps, a Net54er will confirm this card with a BL 460 back.


Possible BL 460 No-Print cards......

Ames (hands over head)
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

Next, I will post a list of the 350/460 series candidates (not yet confirmed with the BL 460 back) that have a high probability of being
found with a BL 460 back.


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

Ted - How does this mesh with what we think of the sheet sizes for the uncut cards? Should there be another few BL 460's out there somewhere, or were these on smaller than the 12 card strips?

[tedzan]

I still have more stuff to post on these BL 460 cards. Then, maybe we'll be able to arrive at some conclusions.

Perhaps, I'll get around to posting that additional information later this evening.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Judd......et al

Due to some new info that I just received, I am retracting my prior statement regarding the the Cobb (bat off)...........
" There is an exception to this rule. The Cobb (bat off shoulder) has indeed been confirmed with UZIT and AB 460 backs.
Also it has been reported to have a BL 460 back. I haven't seen this F/B combo. Perhaps, a Net54er will confirm this card
with a BL 460 back. "

Therefore, the BL 460 vs AB 460/UZIT "rule" appears to apply across the board for all the 350/460 series cards....and, this
Cobb does not appear to exist with a BL 460 back.

This change will be reflected on my BL 460 (confirmed) list and BL 460 (No Print) list.


TED Z

[tedzan]

There are a possible 61 subjects in the 350/460 Series that can be found with a BROAD LEAF 460 back.
To date, approx. 50% of them have been confirmed.


29 known BL 460 cards......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)........................an oddball 350/460 card that has no 350 backs
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


Show or tell us of your Broad Leaf 460 cards ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

An F/B pattern has been observed that indicates T206's that do not exist with American Beauty 460 and UZIT backs
are found with Broad Leaf 460 backs. Conversely (so far) it appears that cards with AB 460 backs and/or UZIT backs
will not be found with BL 460 backs.

Five 350/460 series cards remain that have not been found with AB 460 or UZIT backs; therefore, a good probability
exists that these 5 cards will eventually be found with BL 460 backs......

Chance (yellow portrait).........super print
Chase (blue portrait)..............super print
Chase (dark cap)...................super print
Donlin (bat)
Magee (bat)

Even a higher probability exists that the 3 super-prints will be found with the BL 460 back, since the other 3 super-
prints (Cobb, Evers and Matty) have been confirmed with BL 460 backs.



TED Z

[cfc1909]

There will be more BL 460 cards discovered in the future. Early in 2009 I won a 5 card lot of Broad Leaf 350 backs on ebay and 3 of the 5 cards had NOT yet been confirmed.

New to the hobby were Clymer, Fiene and Mitchell with Broad Leaf 350. I know 350s are a good bit more common but that was 3 unknown fronts in 2009. I know of 2 different Broad Leaf finds not counting the 5 350s from ebay this year. There was a find at the Willow Grove show and another in Boston in 2002 - both of these finds had several BL 460s each.


Here is a Joss from the 2002 Boston find.

BroadLeaf460Joss.jpgBroadLeaf460Jossb.jpg

[tedzan]

JIM......Great BL 460 Joss card.....and, I hope you are right that there will be more BL 460 cards discovered.

Since you mentioned BL 350. If my theory is valid regarding the availability of BL 460 cards relative to their other
existing (or not) T-brand backs, then there's a chance that I may find a Blue portrait Chase with a BL 460 back
to add to my Chase collection of 20 T-brands. I still need a CYCLE 460, DRUM (if it exists), and BL 460 (if it exists).






TED Z

[JerryTotino]

Ted,

To expand on your BL460 "no print" theory for cards not having a confirmed Uzit and/or AB460 B/F combo I noticed that a very large majority (over 83%) of the confirmed BL460's are cards which are also confirmed with a Red Hindu back. I am only referring to Red Hindu cards which are part of the 350/460 series with the exception of the 460-only Kleinow (Boston). As you have already pointed out the Kleinow (Boston) breaks the standard back rules.

In all the cases where a confirmed BL460 back does exist with a Uzit and/or AB460 back the player also has a confirmed Red Hindu:

Baker - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu
Burch (Fielding) - Confirmed with Uzit, AB460 and Red Hindu
Cobb (Red Portrait) - Confirmed with Uzit and Red Hindu
Downey (Bat) - Confirmed with Uzit and Red Hindu
Elberfeld (Fielding) - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu
O'Leary (Hands on knees) - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu
Seymour (Throwing) - Confirmed with Uzit and Red Hindu
Snodgrass (Fielding) - Confirmed with AB460 and Red Hindu

Of the remaining 21 confirmed BL460 subjects which do not exist with either the AB460 or Uzit all except for 5 have been confirmed with a Red Hindu back. These 5 subjects are listed below:

Dougherty (Arm in air)
Mathewson (Dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (Batting)
Rucker (Throwing)

Based on these observations it appears that Red Hindu seems to be tied closely to the BL460 back. 24 of the 29 confirmed BL460's are also confirmed with a Red Hindu back. Assuming this theory to be correct then there is a possibility the 5 players above may be confirmed with a Red Hindu back at some point.

In addition, extending this theory to the remaining "super-prints" and remaining confirmed 350/460 series Red Hindu's the following cards may also be found with BL460 at some point:

Bender (No trees)
Chase (Blue Portrait)
Chase (Dark Cap)
Cobb (Bat off) - As noted this might exist, but waiting for additional confirmation
Donlin (Bat)
Magee (Bat)
Manning (Pitch)
Pfeister (Throwing)
Wagner (Bat/Right)

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Jerry

[tedzan]

Jerry

Great observation regarding the possible connection of BL 460 and Red HINDU cards. And, of course this only
applies to cards in the 350/460 series (BL 460 backs only exist in this series).

While I was putting together my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set, I observed this BL 460/RH linkage. By virtue
of the fact that AB 460 and Red HINDU cards are mutually exclusive. So, I'm glad that you, too, have noticed
the BL 460/RH connection.

Now pardon me, but I have to correct you on the following back data......

Baker...........has not been confirmed with AB 460
Cobb............has not been confirmed with Red HINDU
Elberfeld........has not been confirmed with AB 460
O'Leary.........has not been confirmed with AB 460
Snodgrass.....has not been confirmed with AB 460

My research on these 5 cards is reflected on the most current super-set spreadsheet.

Thanks for posting this very meaningful info regarding the BL 460 cards; and, I hope we can further this discussion.

TED Z

[cfc1909]

I don't think Cobb red portrait has been confirmed with Uzit-I don't think it exist with Uzit or red Hindu-but that is just my opinion

[JerryTotino]

Ted,

Thank you for the AB460 back corrections.

I was using an older version of Bill's file.


Jerry

[tedzan]

Jerry

The current version of the super-set has 4800+ inputs. My guess is that 99.6 % of the input data on this spreadsheet is accurate.
That is an amazingly high percentage of accuracy.

When I was doing research on the "interplay" between AB 460, BL 460, Red HINDU, LENOX, and UZIT backed cards, I noticed that
certain combos on the super-set just didn't jive. I contacted the collectors who provided those questionable inputs. It turned out
that they were mistaken inputs.

Incidently, the 6 super-prints (Chance, both Chase's, Red Cobb, Evers and Matty) were never printed with UZIT backs.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Jerry

Regarding this comment of yours, with respect to this Cobb and the Red HINDU back........

" Cobb (Bat off) - As noted this might exist, but waiting for additional confirmation "


First, this Cobb will not be found with a Red HINDU back. Furthermore, I do not think this Cobb
was printed with a Broad Leaf 460 back. This is not just my opinion. Long-time Cobb collectors
have informed me of this fact.


TED Z

[tedzan]

If my predictions in Post #11 prove to be correct, then there's a good chance that I may find Chance
with a BL 460 back. And perhaps, it will be nicer than my BL 350 card of him. But, I'm not fussy, I will
take a BROAD LEAF 460 card in any condition.





TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
very interesting clearing up and cleaning up the loose ends or tentacles of the Monster.
i agree wholeheartedly that we must not be fussy about the condition of these very rare 460s as i sit here with only the 350 in hand.

all the best,ole friend
barry

[tedzan]

Hey ole buddy.....we know that there are 29 subjects with the BL 460 back.....and, the possibility of at least 5 more.
So, why are they so tough to find ? Therein lies the mystery that The Monster will not reveal. This interplay between
AB 460, BL 460, LENOX, Red HINDU and UZIT should be telling us something....but what ?

Give this some thought, Professor.

Best regards,
Ted

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
I do think with Jim R that there will be more BL460s forthcoming either through finds or via those 'reclusive' collectors--those guardians of the Monster's secrets-- who hold many things we seek.
I do believe that information re: the blue chase and yellow chance you need may well be just
'round the corner.
Granted we are really not too surprised that the 'missing' 460s are so difficult to find because all 460s are difficult to find.
The interplay of the various backs you mention as an illuminative clue toward
further deciphering deserves much more incubation and reflection.
well done, ole buddy.
best,
barry

[B O'Brien]

I am checking a story that I heard to see if there is any proof to the tale, but someone told me that they found a open BL pack in an old fire truck in Cape Cod. He then said the was a Lake "Ball" and Lake "No Ball" next the pack in one of the trays in the dash.
I am sent he guy an email to see if he has any scans, but it has been a long time since I've talked to him, we will see if I get a reply. He bought some big stuff, so maybe it has legs. I will pass along scans if I hear from the gentleman.
Take care,
Bob

[tedzan]

I'll spare you the wait. Lake "Ball" and Lake "No Ball" do not exist with BL 460 backs.

Lake (with ball) is in the 460-only series; therefore, it's impossible to be a BL 460 (or a BL 350) card.

Lake (no ball) is in the 350/460 series where BL 460 cards are found. However, this card exists with
an AB 460 back and a UZIT back; therefore, it will not be found with a BL 460 back.
Furthermore, it doesn't exist with a BL 350 back either.

Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

It appears that American Litho. was concurrently printing BL 460 and Red HINDU cards (circa Winter 1910).

21 subjects from the 350/460 series confirmed with both BL 460 and Red HINDU backs......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


T206 BL 460 cards not yet confirmed with Red HINDU backs......

Cobb (red portrait)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
Reulbach (no glove)


T206 Red HINDU cards from the 350/460 series not yet confirmed with BL 460 backs......

Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

Furthermore, there is a high probability that none of these 34 cards will be found with American Beauty 460
or UZIT backs.


TED Z

[insidethewrapper]

Ted: I'm confused about the above post concerning Cobb ( Red Portrait). Does it exist with the Red Hindu back or not ? You state both in your post. Thanks Mike

[sreader3]

Ted,

Great work as usual.

The PSA pop report indicates two copies of Leifield (Batting) with Hindu--which by implication means Red Hindu.

If it were only one recorded copy, I might dismiss it as a misidentified Leifield (Pitching). But with two I am inclined to think it's the real deal.

Scot

[tedzan]

Thanks Mike

My error....I forgot to delete Cobb from top list.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks for the Leifield input. I will add this card to the Red Hindu list next time I update it tomorrow.
I'm tracking down another input, so there may be two new additions.

Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

It appears that American Litho. was concurrently printing BL 460 and Red HINDU cards (circa Fall/Winter 1910).

21 subjects from the 350/460 series confirmed with both BL 460 and Red HINDU backs......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


T206 BL 460 cards not yet confirmed with Red HINDU backs......

Cobb (red portrait)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
Reulbach (no glove)


T206 Red HINDU cards from the 350/460 series not yet confirmed with BL 460 backs......

Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)

Furthermore, there is a high probability that none of these 34 cards will be found with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
or UZIT backs.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Received an email from a Net54 reader reporting a Doyle (bat) with a BROAD LEAF 460 back.

How about it guys, I realize these BL 460's are the toughest of the toughies, but there has
to be some more of them out there ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Upon further research, I'm retracting the Doyle (bat) with a BL 460 back that was reported.

I keep asking if there are any more BL 460 cards that have not yet been confirmed....but, I'm not getting any responses ! ?


TED Z