Two interesting 1933 Goudey Lajoies

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Posted By: Rob D.

The first one shown below, graded a PSA 5, sold last night for $23,581 (before the buyer's penalty) in SCP's auction.

The second one, graded a PSA 4, is sitting at $25,286 with two weeks to go in Goodwin & Co.'s auction.

Not even taking into consideration the numerical grades, I think most would agree that the "5" actually is nicer than the "4".

Interesting.

SCP's:



Goodwin's:

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Posted By: John K

. . . is king. The 5 is way better, but the centering is not as good. But buyers seem to be fine with paying a heavy premium for centering. I think it's foolish, but how do you measure eye appeal? You can train a monkey to measure centering.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

That 5 is significantly nicer than the 4. Gee, I guess the guy who is sitting with the top bid on the Goodwin 4 just was unaware that a nicer, higher graded example was his for the taking at the same price -- and two weeks earlier.

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Posted By: mark s.

...and perhaps it is a statement about the former's business practices...

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Posted By: bigfish

Edited to say I may have misread this posting. I do want to make a point about slander on the main board. I think it is something people should be aware of.



J....Thanks for the clarification.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Nobody took shot at Bill Goodwin. His Lajoie is doing just fine. I believe the shot was aimed in the general direction of SCP. Their history, including dealings with a board member here, will definitely reduce bidders and therefore final prices.

When they had their problem with Ryan C. last year, we all said it was short sighted for an auction house to work that way. You're seeing some of the fruits of that now. Obviously, there are some people who will not bid with them.

There is no other rational explanation for a higher graded, nicer looking, prominent card, to sell for so much less.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Well, because I don't keep a lawyer on retainer, I'll point out that all I wrote was that it's interesting. And it is.

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Posted By: quan

hmm, rob stop gloating about the BARGAIN you just got on that nice 5 compared to the 4. congrats!

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Posted By: Jim VB

Rob,

I don't have an attorney on retainer either. In this specific case, I think we're covered by Lichtman's umbrella policy.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Jim,

Sweet. In that case, there are a few things I'd like to get off my chest ...

Quan, computer problems in the last minute of the auction prevented me from placing a snipe.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't know about SCP...

I do know that Mr. Goodwin will take a nice item, will cart it around to a few shows and show potential buyers, get them interested... he'll contact collectors he knows that might be interested in a particular item... and then when the bidding starts he may well have 3 or 4 folks with serious interest.


As for the 2 Lajoie cards, either would suit me just fine. At first glance, the 5 looks better. The 4 has better centering. Both are nice. I think if the cards were virtually identical, 4's or 5's, that Mr. Goodwin would excel at getting a higher price than many folks.

From what I read above, there was no libel of anyone up there, but rather praise for Mr. Goodwin's marketing skills. I think the Goudey Lajoie he has up will go for even more!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank, while I would say that the 5 is exponentially better than the 4 I would agree with you that Bill's marketing skills are consistently ingenious.

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Posted By: mark s.

altho brief, my previous comment (which will remain unedited) was not intended to be cryptic or ambiguous.
thank you to jim vb for stating what i was implying.

i must add that i have known bill goodwin, thru this hobby, for more than twenty years and have NEVER, not once, witnessed a reasonable negative remark, by anyone, about bill, his business practices or ethics or anything!
it is my opinion that he is one of the handful of exemplory auction houses, that doesn't solely EARN the confidence of his clientele, and subsequently the fees, but also a highly respected reputation in the process.
i genuinely believe bill goodwin is one of the good guys in this hobby.

I do want to make a point about deceptive auction house practices on the main board. I think it is something people should be aware of.

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Posted By: doug goodman

For my taste, the 5 has better centering.

Doug

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Posted By: boxingcardman

The underbidder on the 5 wants to make sure he gets the four?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: bigfish

I in no way support dirty pool in any form. I do think that posters should have some relevant back up if they want to post about a card being trimmed/colored/altered. That is all.....

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Posted By: James Gallo

What was the deal with SCP Auctions? Can someone give me the short version or a link to a thread.

As for the topic at hand, I find centering on some cards to be a huge factor and I would generally rather have a lower grade example nicer centered there one that is nicer but OC. There was s CM Ruth in a recent auction that if it had been a BS I still would not have chased because it was badly off center. I guess it just depends but centering is big for me.

Thanks

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Jim VB

James,

Digging up an old thread, but it will keep me from bidding with SCP for a long while.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1189109570/How+to+get+ripped+off+by+SCP+Auctions+%26amp%3B+So theby%27s

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Posted By: Vintage Clout

My compliments to "Bigfish" for being the voice of reason on this issue! Timeout gentlemen...and let's all take a deep breath and re-think this whole scenario. Folks, no one ever knows for sure why any card gets "x" price in one auction and then "y" price in another. There are a coutless number of variables that are factored into the final "hammer' price of a valuable baseball card. There are a significant number of high rollers in this hobby and they are the individuals that typically set the tempo for the final cost of a high end vintge card. Think of the possible scenarios...did any of these collectors take a bath in the stock market one particular week (very possible in theis day and age!)? Does the collector have a "gripe" with a particular auction house and will absolutely not bid on any of its lots? Does a collector have a favorite auction house (we all do I'm sure)? Are people away on vacation? Is their economic staus suffering within a particular month? Personal problems occuring whereby buying cards is secondary in their life at any given moment? The list goes on and on.....

....I myself, as a serious vintage collector, have suffered on many occassions paying a higher price for a card that eventually appears in another auction for up to 25% less! Unfortunately this is the nature of our business, and the VARIABLES responsible for such pricing disparities are endless. Collecting cards is a wonderful hobby for me and I know all my fellow "54" board members feel the same. Fingerpointing and false accusations over an extended period of time will only result in the eventual demise of the vintage card industry. In unity there is strength, and we should all take a step back as well as a more positive attitude and "engage our brains BEFORE we engear our pens".

I only say this because I would hate to see senseless bickering, whether it is grading issues, pricing, etc. be the ultimate cause of our hobby's downfall. Best of luck to all of you fine people in your future collecting endeavors!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So let me get this straight: people were on vacation or had a bad week in the stock market when looking at the higher graded, far-better looking card but managed to get to the computer or win enough at the roulette table at the very same time the 5 closed in order to bid up the much-inferior card to the same price?

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff - I'm guessing Danny didn't know that the auctions were running at the same time.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: Vintage Clout

Not at all Jeff...I was just making a general statement about the overall auction process, not this particular case. In this case, possibly more exposure or simply people being more comfortable bidding in Goodwin vs. Sotheby's. Who knows? The point of my note relates to the ENTIRE hobby. Case in point...a year ago I was in Europe for 3 weeks and missed out on some awesome cards in MastroNet...only to pay additional $$$ for the same cards (and same grades) a month later (Boy was I upset)....it's very frustrating. Bottom line is all of my examples were not intended to relate to the Lajoie. I do know this...there are some auction houses I WON'T bid in REGARDLESS of what they are offering.

Sincerely,
VC

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Posted By: Jim VB

Danny,

Speaking only for my own posts on this thread, I was discussing ONLY the disparity between two, very similar cards. Both were auctioned, at the same time, in two, major, national-reach auction houses. Anyone in the market for that particular card would know that both were up for bid.

The only logical conclusion, in this case, is that SCP does not have the same reach or respect in the industry as Goodwin.

I pointed to a possible explanation as to why. Poorly handled customer issues will always come back to bite a company in the ass. Now, had they been selling a unique card, the results might have been different. But this time they weren't and the person who consigned that card to SCP is the loser. It would make you think twice if you were ready to consign cards to an auction company.

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Posted By: Vintage Clout

Jim....I am with you 100%, that is without a doubt the "nature of the beast" in this industry!

Regards,
VC

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Posted By: JT Burchfield

> The only logical conclusion, in this case, is that SCP does not have the same reach or respect in the industry as Goodwin.

I've never dealt with either, so I'm not taking sides or accusing anyone of anything. But when I saw the first post, my first thought was "I wonder if the Goodwin Lajoie is being shilled?"

Again, given Goodwin's reputation, that probably isn't true, but there are other "logical conclusions."

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Posted By: Jim VB

Interesting. That thought would NEVER cross my mind with Goodwin.

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - certainly none would suspect Goodwin of doing the shilling, but a friend of the consignor can shill in almost any auction and it's almost impossible to stop.

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: Jim VB

Matt,

True. But in a case like this, where the price is, seemingly, at or over market, with a couple of weeks to go, the consignor/shiller runs the risk of getting his own card back, after paying buyer's and seller's fees.


I guess it's possible..., but not very bright.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

And don't forget, sometimes really popular cards like Tip Top Wagners and Goudey Lajoies are ultimately not paid for by auction winners. I hate when that happens.

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff - that would solve the problem with those pesky fees, wouldn't it...

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I think this illustrates the unusual prices seen for this card in the past in different grades and also the strength of the graded card market. The last price for a PSA 4 was $17,250(10/06) and the last for a 5 was 31,700(12/07).Two PSA 6s have gone for $36,700 and $43,700(12/06 and 9/07)and two PSA 7s for $32,300 and $36,700(both in 4/07). The last PSA 8 went for $55,100 in 12/06.

Two other points:

1)If a 4 can go for $25,000 it suggest the next 7 could exceed $50,000 and the next PSA 8 perhaps $90,000-$100,000

2)Two my surprise the graded vintage/semi-vintage card market is not weakening very much. I have been buying a lot recently--all different kinds of stuff and I am not seeing prices come off a lot. Maybe they will but for the PSA 8s and above 1887-1969 all sports and non-sports prices are staying pretty strong.

Jim

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Posted By: Jim VB

"I have been buying a lot recently--all different kinds of stuff and I am not seeing prices come off a lot."


Jim,

I think by now, they all see you coming and dust off all of their PSA 8's.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jim,

Ebay prices pretty strong--have spoken two a few other buyers in the hobby and they all say the same thing.

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Posted By: Alan

I'm confused. Can someone explain what this thread is about. Is it comparing reputations of the 2 auction houses ?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I think Auction House can make a big difference--two major auction houses for various reasons I refuse to buy anything from.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Alan,

It might be confusing, but at least it's free.

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Posted By: Paul

Next time you complain about your cards not getting the grades they deserve, think about the poor guy who submitted the 5 Lajoie. Maybe there's something wrong with the back, but if not, I think this guy lost tens of thousands on bad grading. How can that be only a 5?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Comeon, Paul, that 5 has awful centering. The 4 is probably nicer. Well, if not nicer it's certainly going to sell for more.

Woops, edited to add: the 4 is already more expensive than the 5 and still has two weeks to go!

The three most important words in online auctioneering: marketing marketing and marketing.

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Posted By: MikePugeda

Regarding centering, although the PSA4 may have better centering top to bottom, the PSA5 has better centering side to side.



I'd take the 5 over the 4 any day of the week.



I assume Rob started this thread for us to discuss the reasons why a higher graded card sold for less than a lower graded copy (both being auctioned weeks apart). I think it's possible that what Adam mentioned might have some merit. Maybe the underbidder on the 5 wants to ensure he'll win the 4. Who knows, it's all speculation....and what does it really matter? We see auctions all the time for far less significant cards that make us shake our heads.

Edited to add: After checking the scans again, I think the 5 is centered to the top very similar to the way the 4 is centered to the bottom, and again side to side centering favors the 5. I'm just surprised some feel the centering on the 5 is so much worse than the 4.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mike, I was being horribly sarcastic. Ray Charles could see that the 5 is centered better than the 4.

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Posted By: keyway

I agree with you paul, that 5 is a beautiful card. No comparison to the 4. Frank

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

the centering on the 5 looks worse than it is because the plastic support on the top covers the card just a bit in the scan.....


the PSA 4 is still in the old case so the buyer probably thinks it can be bumped to a 4.5..... old flips garner more sometimes because they have the POTENTIAL to grade a 1/2 higher...

also, the PSA 5 probably has a surface crease on the back you cant see, therefore it received the highest grade possible with a crease (5)....

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I will take either.

Marty