Why would the T206 Shaughnessy be so tough to find ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Most T206 collectors will agree that the "Shag" Shaughnessy card in the T206 set is very difficult to find.
Essentially, all the 48 Southern Leaguers (SL) were printed equally; therefore, Shag's card is not a Short-
Print. Furthermore, he is found with all three backs that the majority of the SL's were printed with.

So then....why is Shag so much tougher to find than the other 47 SL cards ?



At age 17, Frank Shaughnessy started his sports career in 1901 playing BB and FB at Notre Dame; and, in
his senior year (1904) Shag was their FB Captain. He graduated in 1905 with a degree in Pharmacy. Sub-
sequently, he also earned a law degree.

Shag's T206 card appears to be in high demand, although he had a very brief Major League career with the
Washington Senators (1905) and the Philadelphia A's (1908).


His "following" is attributable to his diverse and successful careers as a College Football and Hockey Coach.
A member of three Canadian Hall-of-Fames, in 1912 Shag became FB coach at McGill University (Montreal).

http://www.cfhof.ca/index.php?module=page&id=28&builder=Shaughnessy,%20Frank


Furthermore, Shag never left the BB scene....during the BB seasons from 1909-1960 he was a player/manager
in the Virginia League. Then he managed teams in the International League (of which he became the President
from 1936 to 1960). In 1946, along with Branch Rickey, Shag was instrumental in facilitating Jackie Robinson's
entry into professional baseball with the Montreal Royals.


Show us your Frank Shaughnessy cards....what other sportscards is he depicted on ?



TED Z


Thanks to Net54 reader, Mel (texasholden), who discussed Shag's great career with me at the Reading Show.

[Archive]

Posted By: dstudeba

The same picture in a much, much uglier form is on his e222 AWH Caramels card. (Picture from REA)

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Ol' Shag's bouffant coif really reminds me of somebody--a famous composer, I think. Can anyone recall who he resembles?

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Check-out this nice photo of a mature looking Shag......


http://www.cfhof.ca/index.php?module=page&id=28&builder=Shaughnessy,%20Frank


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

You found the image I could not locate! That's the one!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob D.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

wasn't there a blurb recently in a thread here about someone hoarding this card. Was it Huggins?

I recall reading someone had/has tens of this card...30 or 40 of them?

pete ullman

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I don't remember what company had them but I did see about 30 Shags on one table at the National that weren't being sold.....it was amazing...

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

James said that the lot of Shags were part of Bill Huggins' personal collection.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

nm

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe D.

based on what I saw at the National (as leon mentioned) - my guess is the card was being hoarded.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It's not only Bill Huggins accumulating these Shag cards, there are other collectors (hoarders)
out there buying them up, also.

There appears to be a "cult following" for Shag.

[Archive]

Posted By: James Feagin

Bill Huggins has about 20-25 Shag's. He really likes the "Count Dracula" look of the ballplayer.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

my only shag (shown many times but maybe a newbie hasn't seen it)....excuse the others...ya' take what ya' can...

[Archive]

Posted By: samuel

the picture, the name, the green background, the fact that he's a southern leaguer. I think a lot of people are unwilling to let go of it for these reasons.

[Archive]

Posted By: ethicsprof

somehow i shagged a shag early in my 206 collecting.
a great card with a head of hair that i haven't had since the 70's.
different hairdo, thankfully

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff S.

Is your E222 Shag missing the "R" in "Roanoke"? Love the color variations in that set.

[Archive]

Posted By: J. McMurry

Dang! Says ol Shag also coached at Clemson. I dont remember his name at all, I'll have to pull out some programs/ books and see what info they have about him. Seems like every pre-war card that I would have a real interest in collecting is either ultra rare or ultra expensive. Very frustrating, I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

<<I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.>>


Surely, you're kidding.

[Archive]

Posted By: J. McMurry

you got it.
























































....and dont call me Shirley.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Poses

ted, while i agree that its a tough card to find, i disagree that it is the toughest. there are a few other southern leaguers i have found to be much harder (bernhard, paige, foster and ryan, with shag being on par with lipe, revelle and hooker). i base this on a year and a half of trying to assemble a southern league set, searching high and low for cards i needed.

indeed, one can pick up a foley white, bastian or miller pretty much anyday, but, at least during my quest for the southern league set, i had an easier time finding shag than bernhard and paige. at one point i had 2 hindu shags and an old mill shag- and that was before i had kiernan, fritz or hart (little rock). (thanks to ted, i managed to snag a paige, which was driving me crazy to find).

ultimately, when i ended my mission, i had all the cards EXCEPT bernhard, which, i believe is actually the toughest of the southern league cards.

i think a combination of factors have created a mystique around the card. among these factors, the more "aesthetically pleasing" cards seem to command a premium, and by most accounts, the shag card is a favorite among t206 collectors. as such, on any given day, all things equal, people will pay more for a shag than a bernhard. because any given shag will sell for more than any given bernhard, the higher value is perceived as being "more scarce." arch persons is a relatively hideous looking card, yet according to scot reader's exhaustive study, its the most scarce (though in my experience, it was easy to come by).

i think what i'm trying to say is that shag is the "most wanted" southern league card, but not necessarily the "hardest to find."

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your last statement just summarized the point I have made in my initial post on this thread......

" i think what i'm trying to say is that shag is the "most wanted" southern league card, but not necessarily the
"hardest to find." "


Therefore....indeed, due to the "law of supply and demand"......Shaughnessy's T206 is the...."hardest to find".

There is a "cult following" for the T206 Shag card (and his other cards) simply because this man was a dynamic
and very successful sports figure. And, informed sportscards collectors want a piece of him.

I just skimmed the surface of Shag's multi-sports career. I find it amazing that he would alternate (or interleave)
his International League BB managing career with his College Football and Hockey seasons.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Phil

I just went through the SGC Population Reports. Now I know that this report is just a small sampling of the total T206 population since there are other grading companies (PSA, etc.) and the vast amount of raw T206s. But I thought it was interesting and pertinent to the discussion.

There were only 6 Southern Leaguers with 45 or fewer graded examples with SGC:

1. Roy Ellam - 41 Examples
2. J. Ross Helm - 44
2. Pat McCauley - 44
2. George Paige - 44
5. Ed Foster - 45
5. Hub Perdue - 45

Now the most graded Southern Leaguers were:

1. Al Orth - 73 Examples
2. Jack Bastian - 72
3. Tony Thebo - 70
4. James Westlake - 68
5. Harry Lentz - 66

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

J. McMURRY

Check-out this Clemson Tigers website on Shaughnessy..........

http://clemsontigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/092107aaa.html

He enjoyed a short stint with the Tigers as the head FB coach. And, during the 1906 BB season he hit .352 while
playing with Ottawa in the International Lge. Connie Mack scouted him and signed him up to play with the A's for
the 1908 season.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: David Poses

not to hijack the thread, and i know this has been discussed in the past- but-

who, in your experience, has been the toughest southern leaguer to find?

for me, it was bernhard. i'd be curious to get everyone else's take.

also, that sgc pop report, though obviously not exhaustive, looks to me like a good representative slice of the pie.
d

[Archive]

Posted By: J.McMurry

Thanks for the heads up on the article Teddy Z. I had looked him up in the CU media guide,but that didnt provide half the info as the website. Just an aside, The SID that wrote that is also a Notre Dame alumni, he was there during the "Rudy" years and is a walking encyclopedia of Stats.


So, now Ya'll are telling me that George Paige is also a rare card? Dang, another card I wanted,probably out of reach.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st.....I maintain that Shaughnessy is the toughest Southern Leaguer in my experience collecting 5 - T206 sets.

2nd....I don't place that much credence in any Population Report. However, what does the PSA POP report tell us ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam

Just felt like sharing a scan of my Hindu Shag!

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Dawson

Ted, here's the PSA pop report for Shaughnessy:


Grd.....Unk.....Hindu.....Old Mill.....Piedmont
1q.......0.......1.........0............0
1........3.......1.........0............2
2.......10.......0.........0............3
3q.......1.......0.........1............0
3........7.......0.........4............3
3.5......0.......0.........1............0
4.......16.......0.........5............3
5q.......0.......0.........1............0
5.......10.......0.........6............2
6q.......2.......0.........0............0
6.......11.......1.........0............2
7........4.......0.........0............1
8........3.......0.........0............1
Total...67.......3........18...........17



OK, hopefully, this will straighten out the chart, and I apologize for causing confusion. Again, this is the pop report for Shaughnessy only. The first column on each line is the PSA grade. The second column is number of "unknown" backs. Then you have the Hindu, Old Mill and Piedmont backs in order. The last line is the total number of each back graded to date.


Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

While I appreciate your effort, but that data reminds me of some kind of WWII secret coded information.

Now, can we get some SL names and actual numbers to go with them so we can compare with the above SGC data ?

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

The spacing of stats is difficult on the board. You might try putting periods between the numbers. That's what I do when I need to list numbers or words....At least the spacing is correct that way.....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for re-formating your PSA data on the Shaughnessy card.

Can I ask you how his data relates to the rest of the 47 Southern Leaguers ?

Not so much with respect to the 3 backs, but the total number graded. For starters you have 105 Shaughnessy cards.

Thanks again for your time and effort.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Phil

OK, I finally took the time to go through PSA's Population Report to compare numbers with the above data for SGC that I posted last week:

PSA FINDINGS:

There were only 4 T206s with 100 or fewer graded by PSA:

Arch Persons - 93 Examples
Ed Foster - 96
Dom Mullaney - 98
J.F. Kiernan - 100

Most Popular graded by PSA:

James Westlake - 154
Dolly Stark - 142
Foley White - 137
Jimmy Hart - 135
Al Orth - 134
Charles Seitz - 134

NOW, COMBINING SGC & PSAs NUMBERS SHOW THE FOLLOWING:

Least Examples Combined in Both SGC & PSA:

Ed Foster - 141
Arch Persons - 144
Roy Ellam - 149
Sid Smith - 152
Harry Bay - 152

Most Examples Combines in Both SGC & PSA:

James Westlake - 222
Al Orth - 207
Jack Bastian - 204
Foley White - 201
Dolly Stark - 200
Tony Thebo - 200


Now going one step further with relation to Shag Shaughnessy:

His Numbers are:
SGC - 54 (23rd Rarest out of 48 Southern Leaguers)
PSA - 106 (12th Rarest out of 48 Southern Leaguers)
TOTAL - 160 (19th Rarest out of 48 Southern Leaguers)

So if we can take these two major card grading companies as a good sampling of T206s, then the rarest SL would be Ed Foster, the most common would be James Westlake, and Shag Shaughnessy would be the 19th rarest out of 48.

I know this doesn't take into consideration other grading companies and the vast amount of raw cards out there, but just thought I'd take a little time to elaborate on last weeks data. Now I have to get back to work.