New Discovery - New E121-Like Back Variation Found!

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

The recent Shotwell Candy discovery in the recent Huggins & Scott collection has prompted me to share a discovery I made about 2 years ago with a Witmor Candy back that I picked up. I was able to pick up a small collection of these cards and in the collection all the backs had the "more common" horizontal backs, but when I got them I discovered that there was actually two variations of the horizontal back.

Those that know the Witmor Candy cards (at least the few of us that care about them) know that the thinking was that the horizontals were "fairly tough" with the verticals being MUCH TOUGHER. While that is true I have not seen another copy of the second horizontal version outside of my collection, and I have been looking at every one that has been offered since I discovered the difference 2 years ago.

Of the two Horizontal backs the "common" one is the one with the 3rd line indented and the first line ending "pictures of the", while the difficult version has the 3rd line justified with the others and the first line ending "pictures of". It is also interesting to add that on the tough back the offer includes a glove, which may be why the cards are tough, as they pulled the glove portion of the offer on the other back.

While obviously this isn't as exciting as a new manufacturer it dose pose another back for those of us anal enough to try and get them all. However, it is a little bigger difference than the TOUGH Type 3 back E121 Series of 80 I reported a few years ago.

I am looking for those with Witmor's to check them out and see if you have the two variations of the horizontal backs.

-Rhett

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Posted By: leon

That is a neat printing variation. I agree with your summation of it too. I have sold a few of the horizontals (and one vertical) back in the past but didn't check to see if the horizontal was like the one you show here. I doubt it was or I would have remembered (and kept) it......thanks for sharing.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

pretty cool find.

Ken

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Posted By: Mark

This post reminded me to check some of my newer acquisitions for the last variation on the E121 backs that Rhett found and there it is:





Is the multiplier on this still 1 X?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Mark, they are tough to find. Don't know if there is a multiplier established yet or if there are enough people that care, but that variation is tougher than the Type 2 "ends in eighty" E121 Series of 80 back, and those do sell for a premium.
-Rhett

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Posted By: fkw

Thanks Rhett, I checked my Witmor back and I have the "Non-Glove" one. I am with you in thinking they took out the "glove" early on.

The 3 backs in E121-80

Has the first line end in "eighty of the", and has a BLOCK style font for "LANCASTER AND YORK, PENNA."

Has the first line end in "eighty of the", and has a SERIF style font for "LANCASTER AND YORK, PENNA." (not sure how rare it is yet)

Has the first line end in "eighty"



***Edited to change info on the E121-80

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Posted By: fkw

edited to remove worthless post, sorry

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Great stuff! Can't wait to check out my handful of E121 American Caramels to see if they are block or serif. One of you guys needs to write a book (or at least an article) on E121 types!

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Posted By: fkw

Not trying to get away from the original Witmor discovery, but this scan of Rhetts shows the variations of the E121-80

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Just want to add that from what I can tell the "serif" font is WAY harder to find than the regular block print series of 80. I have 3 of them (I think, I may have to check) but have bought most of them that I have seen over the past two years or so, at least before E120 & E121 card took off price-wise within the last year and I kinda got priced out by registry people paying crazy $$ for any and all of them without regard to the back variation. I would estimate 1 serif for every 50-100 regulars would be about what my experience has shown.
-Rhett

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Posted By: fkw

Thanks Rhett for the info, I remember when you brought to light the serif variation, but wrote down the wrong info and for some reason had the block style listed as the tougher one.

I like all these small variations in backs, it makes it more interesting for a type collector.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Frank, the serif is definately tougher than the other, if I said anything other than that in the past I was probably just writing too fast or not paying enough attention to what I was writing.

As someone that is interested in back variations, I will share another one I have found, but this one is even less exciting than the serif/non-serif E121 back. This variation involves the E220 National Caramel set, and the differences are minor but in my opinion legitimate enough to be considered a new back variation.

The main difference being the size of the print of the first line, and probably most-telling is the spacing between the words in the line "--Made only by--" on back. Haven't done too much research to see if one is tougher than the other but I have several of each indicating that one isn't necessarily tougher than the other (but I could be wrong). Just thought someone else might care about the small printing variances that are around, and uncatalogued.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Mark L

I just happen to have a small stack of E220's in front of me and notice that I have one (Cutshaw)of the first type (small print first line, small space b/w word) types out of a total of sixteen. Among those sixteen, I have two with a reverse back (Daubert and Ross Young(s). Does anybody know if they are uncommon?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Mark, I just checked my E220's as well, and it's funny but I have 16 as well...

The easiest way to tell which type you have is to check if the first "B" from "Base Ball" is below the first or second "s" in the word "consists" in the first line.

If the top one in my picture is type 1 and the bottom picture is type 2, I have the following...

(Type 1)-- I have 12 of this type, all backs in same direction as E121 cards (not reversed)

(Type 2)-- I have 4 of this type, with 3 out of the 4 being "reversed" in relation to the other E220 backs.


-Rhett

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Posted By: Mark Lutz

Ok, that helps. I looked around and have FOUR of the second type, with 2 of them having reversed backs. I count 19 E220's in total laying around the house, so I have roughly 21% of type two.






edited to correct the numbers

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Posted By: Scot Reader

All of my series of 80s (Alexander, Rixey) and series of 120s (Heilmann, Hooper, Southworth, Speaker) have the most common back. Damn.

Rhett, I think it would be interesting if you started a survey thread, in the vein of Ted's T206 surveys.

Scot

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

while not as significant as Rhett's discovery, the typeset on the front of E121's can vary slightly, which would further prove multiple print runs. Here are two Pinch Thomas cards with identical backs--note how the C in Cleveland is different and how it lines up directly under the E in Chester on one card but not the other:

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Posted By: leon

Nice catch......I bet we could come up with a great archival thread with errors, typeset differences and oddities. I love these things.....well, not love but you know what I mean......regards

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Posted By: jrhatchjr

Greetings,

Was going through some cards recently and found another of the Witmor horizontal "glove" backs, albeit a rough example.



Cheers,
jrhatchjr

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Posted By: Andy Cook

Before I sold them a year or so ago, I had about six Witmors and had both horizontal backs in my group. Somewhere I have a scan of them. I found the vertical backs to be harder than either horizontal back...but given that Witmors are so tough in any case, all the backs are pretty difficult.

Andy

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Nice to see one of my old threads resurrected...

Andy, your Witmor's that you had are the ones I currently have (with both backs) as I purchased them from you. Other than your grouping I had yet to see another of the "with glove" horizontal Witmor until this low-grade example was posted. I'm unsure how difficult the "w/glove" horizontal is compared to the vertical, but it is MUCH tougher than the other horizontal...
-Rhett

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I should note that out of the 8 Witmor Candy E121's I own, the breakdown is as follows...

Owen Bush Horizontal (Type 2- w/ "glove")
Jake Daubert Horizontal (Type 1- w/o "glove")
George Dauss Horizontal (Type 2- w/ "glove")
William Doak Horizontal (Type 1- w/o "glove") Cancelled w/ Star hole-punch
Hank Gowdy Vertical Back
Wm. C. Jacobson Horizontal (Type 1- w/o "glove")
Carl Mays Horizontal (Type 2- w/ "glove")
"Pep" Young Horizontal (Type 1- w/o "glove")




I will note that all 3 type-2 horizontals came from Andy's group and since purchasing them I have seen at least 15-20 Type 1 horizontals and 5 Verticals w/o seeing another Type-2 horizontal.

I don't know if it is just due to small sampling size, but I suspect the second horizontal type to be about as rare or tougher than the verticals, but time may change that view.