How Did They Come Up With 1912 For E270s?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm curious as to who and how they came up with that year for Red Border and Tin Top Colgan's. I would guess the earliest both of these sets were released was 1911 based on some players who only played in 1911 for a certain team...and as late as 1913 they were still updating players with their new teams. Red Ames was traded to the Cincinnati Reds on May 22, 1913 and he appears in the Tin Tops set with the Reds...you would have to figure that it took them a month at the earliest to get that card out so by mid 1913 they were still updating.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

In Mr. Lipset's Encyclopedia, he states that Bill Haber considered 1912 the date for the red border Colgans, and 1913 for the Tin Tops. Mr. Lipset goes on to state that he thinks Mr. Haber was correct.

I spoke with Mr. Haber on the phone about Colgans, white border tobacco cards, and the like. He was a very focused, dedicated collector. While Mr. Haber's article on Colgans was from 1981, I think he was close to having Colgans figured out. He always wanted to know which Colgans you had, hoping you had one that he either lacked, or had not cataloged.

Richard Egan's 1969 publication, Handbook To US Early Candy And Gum Baseball Issues, lists E254s and E270s, but has no mention of a date for either issue.

I think the Standard Catalog should change their dates to reflect what Mr. Lipset and Mr. Haber had, 1912 for the red border E270 Colgans, and 1913 for the Tin Top backed Colgans.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think the Red Border's should be cataloged as 1911 and perhaps even 1910 just by going by the Bob Unglaub card. Unglaub is shown as having 3 variations according to the open-checklist website.

http://www.openchecklist.com/oc_browse.php?pagetype=set&subpage=setcards&objectkey=0483

He played for Washington in 1910, Lincoln in 1911 and Minneapolis in 1912. He has a card depicting all three team names in the red border set. I have seen the Lincoln card, but not the other two. Does anyone have images of him with Washington and/or Minneapolis?

I'm starting to think that all three Colgan's sets had some overlap and were available at the same time in a couple of years or perhaps just 1912. Maybe in different markets...wasn't Skydash's tin tops hoard found in Cleveland?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Another example Bill Moriarty (omaha) in the Red Border set. 1910 Was the only year Moriarty played for Omaha. I just can't see them issuing a card for him showing him with Omaha in 1912 when he would have been in his second season with Trenton.

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Posted By: Scot York

Jim Thorpe was in the olympics (track) in 1912 and he's in the tintops set?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Yes Scott, Thorpe is in the Tin Tops. And according to Mr. Haber and Mr. Lipset, the Tin Tops are 1913 cards. So it fits that he's in the Olympics in 1912... he plays his first ML game on April 14, 1913, and makes it into those 1913 Tin Tops.

Realistically, the Colgans cards do a GREAT job of depicting ballplayers from 1909 through 1913. A better span than the white border tobacco cards, or Cracker Jacks, or even the E90-1s. They're an under-appreciated issue.

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Posted By: Scot York

I agree with you guys, the tin tops are at least a 1913 issue... I guess the "208" back variation would fall in there as well (1909-1912)?.

Edited: I can't even find a "208" variation let alone date them.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

The Tin Top set includes many team changes of players that are shown with their 1912 team and then later made with their new 1913 team so production definately ran into the 1913 season. The question is whether the cards were produced late in the 1912 season or whether the ones picturing players with their 1912 teams were just early 1913 productions. There are several players like Tommy Atkins who was with Atlanta in 1912 and Ft. Wayne in 1913--he has a card with each. Another example is Bunk Congalton, he is first pictured with Toledo whom he played for in 1912 and later with Omaha whom he was with in 1913. Also a note about the Tin Tops is that these cards were produced by the Autosales Company, the Successors of Colgans Gum Co. as I have found 6 different cards from this series still in their tins and every one came in the Autosales tin as opposed to the "Colgans" tin.


The Red Borders are Colgans "lazy" set. They didn't do many team updates in this set and only included 2 new players in the entire series. The new players were both "local" Louisville players J. Sullivan and Red Fisher. This series was definately produced in the 1911 season and may have continued through early 1912 as well.


The "208" Series cards are definately a product of 1909-11 as they are part of the E254 set. The players that I have seen have not done much to pinpoint one particular year as the year these came out. I currently have 4 and have owned 2 others and the best I can date is that 1911 is unlikely as a date, but that could be wrong. One player I have "Red" Nelson never played with Toledo, whom he is pictured with in his "208 Series" card, if he was sold or traded to that team and a date can be attributed, then maybe we could narrow down that date a little.



The 4 I own are Clarke (Pittsburgh), Nelson (Toleso), Ritter (Kansas City), and George Bell (Brooklyn). I have owned in the past McGinley (Toronto) and Overall (Chicago).


Hope this helps
-Rhett

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Posted By: Scot York

Rhett, That Clarke is a beauty! More great information as well. Thanks!

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Scot,
actually out of all the "208's" the Ritter I have is by far the best condition in an SGC 84 holder, the background color on him looks like wear when you look quickly. The Clarke was an extra added bonus as I bought the card on ebay several years ago in a PSA 4 holder w/ no back scan and when I got it I noticed the "208" back--the Clarke with the "h" on Pittsburgh is tougher than the Pittsburg version.

-Rhett