O/T - Goosed!!!

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Posted By: wayne

Goose Gossage made it to the hall!!! Out of all the people who were up for consideration, Im glad he did. Any thoughts on those that didnt make it in??? I dont think they will ever let ol' Jim Rice in. Thoughts?

Wayne

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Posted By: boxingcardman

alive in this year's class?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Anthony S.

Rice just missed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof08/news/story?id=3186626

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Posted By: davidcycleback

In a HOF vote, it's usually better to have too few than too many.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I will never understand how one reliever gets in before every deserving starter does. Its stupidity to let a guy who pitches about 1/3rd of the average starter.There's no way as an overall career you can consider Gossage or Sutter over Blyleven. 99% of relievers are failed starters anyway,why give them credit for not being good enough to start but good enough to go thru a lineup maybe once a series

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Posted By: wayne

Dawson I feel will eventually get in, but it was the Goose's turn this time. 9 time all star...nice!

Wayne

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Posted By: wayne

John,

How can you say that!!! Everybody on a team has a role. You either fail, or excel. The role for Goose was clear...set up for the closer, or close the game. He did it good enough to be considered one of the best! Would you say a third baseman is a first basemen reject???

Wayne

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Plus Goose saved games...when saves meant something. None of this one out BS.

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Posted By: Scott Sarian

I'm most surprised that someone can get 86% of the vote in the ninth year after not getting 75% in 8 previous tries. And Gossage regularly received smaller percentages than Rice in past years; what changed??

I would be most curious to see if the people who voted for the likes of Travis Fryman and Rod Beck also voted for Rice, Blyleven, Dawson and any other legit candidates. Votes such as the ones for Fryman and Beck show that this is a flawed system.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Congratulations to Goose Gossage, the newest member of the Hall of Fame! While I don't agree with many of the HOF's choices, I have no problem seeing Goose's plaque hanging on the wall at Cooperstown. A well-deserved honor for one of the greatest relievers ever ...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My belief is, that for any team sport, you have to be able to field a full and good starting team from its members. Thus, if the positions are needed for a real live game, a football Hall of Fame has to have a place kicker as member and a baseball Hall of Fame has to have a closer.

Rugged He-man football players regularly complain about place kickers, but know you'll lose football games if if your team doesn't a good one.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

There are no Punters in the Pro Football HOF...

I think Goose deserved to go.. good for him.

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I said when all the deserving starters are in the hall of fame then see if any relievers warrant induction. Comparing a 3rdbaseman that plays everyday to a first baseman that plays every day isnt the same thing as a starter who pitches 4000 innings compared to 1200 for a reliever. Guys who are DH's only dont get as much credit as regular position players such as when Ortiz finished 2nd to Arod for the MVP,all you heard was that he doesnt play a position. Edgar Martinez was mainly a DH and I dont think his career numbers are good enough to overcome the fact he didnt play a position most of his career

If some guy came along and only PH every game he played and he hit .350 career over 20 years and had 1000 career pinch hits,Im not even considering him for the hall. Relievers are failed starters for the most part,especially back then,so what if they were good,if they were left as starters they probably wouldnt even be an afterthought now. There's about 10 starters who deserve to be in before I even consider any of these guys hall of fame worthy

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For eligible HOF quality players, the only legitimate concern is whether or not they are elected within the next decade or so. Whether a player was elected first, or this year or that is borderline numerology. Anyone who looks at the historical records knows that voting percentages should be taken with a historical grain of salt (Are Tom Seaver and Cal Ripken the greatest players to play the game?). You could field a hell of baseball team with players who were not voted in their first year of eligibility (Joe DiMaggio, Jimmie Foxx, Cap Anson, for examples).

Twenty years from now, ten years from now, no one's going to care whether Gossage or Jim Rice was voted in 2007 or 2008 or 2009-- and there's no reason they should care. No one says Robin Yount is a better player than Joe DiMaggio, because it took more years for DiMaggio to get in. No one says Tony Gwynn is a better player than Babe Ruth because Gwynn got a higher percentage of the HOF vote. In fact, baseball fans universally will question your iq and perhaps even sanity for using that logic and deduction-- for what should be the obvious reasons that Gwynn isn't better than Ruth and Yount isn't better than DiMaggio. So why, then, each year do sports reporters and fans get their girdles in a bunch about vote percentages and election year (beyond how it directly relates to a worthy player being a HOF member)?


////

Just from the top of your head: Was Bruce Sutter elected in 2005 or 2006? Could it have been 2007?

P.s. I had to look up the year. I knew Sutter was elected just recently, but wasn't sure of the specific year.

Sutter was elected to the HOF in 2006. If I had said the answer was 2005, would that make you think Sutter was a greater ptcher?

My main point is few baseball fans can even state the year or vote percentage for a HOFer, including for greats like DiMaggio, Satchell Paige and Willie Mays-- and much less judge the greatness by these stats.

That I'm a baseball fan who followed Sutter's recent election and vote hubub and even had a GU Sutter cap at the time, but couldn't today recall or find importance in the year of his election, shows me all I need to know about the significance of these votings statistics.

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

There are no Punters in the Pro Football HOF...
------------------

Bob Waterfield was an awesome punter...he played for 8 years in the NFL and was his team's punter all 8...along with QB (and the first 4 years he played D also).

And the greatest punter of all time....Sammy Baugh...who punted for Washington for 9 years....averaging 45 yards per punt (which I think is still the record?). Sammy also happened to play a little QB every now and then.

On a serious note I think that someday Ray Guy could possibly make it.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Ray Guy not being in the HOF is a travesty. He was the greatest ever at a very important position.

I strongly disagree with the idea that closers are not as important as starters and I think every manager in baseball would agree as well. Anyone who watched what Mariano Rivera did in the Yankees' championship runs can see that.

The innings pitched thing isn't a valid issue; using that logic you could also claim that every position player worthy should go in before every pitcher because after all, a pitcher only plays 40 or so games a year.

As the game evolves the HOF has to evolve with it. Closers are as important to a team today as a good starter. The HOF is gradually adjusting by enshrining the best of them. DH's will have their day too. Heck, Molitor is already in and he spent a lot of time DHing.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: dennis

if you look at who the writers have elected to the hall of fame since its inception. i think all would agree the system works. the writers take this election seriously. the old-timers have diluted the hall,not the bb writers.

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Posted By: Glen V

Closers are very important to baseball - they supply some of the best highlights:

Hoffman collapsing against the Rockies in extra innings
Rivera blowing game seven to the Diamondbacks
Eck. serving up Kirk Gibson's homerun

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Posted By: andy becker

ray guy was the greatest punter in the post-2way era.

great punters that are in the hof:

baugh, waterfield already mentioned.

ken strong and jim thorpe were also great punters in their era, the difference is that thorpe and strong also were position players....and thus not labeled as punters.

fwiw, i think ray guy should have been a first ballot HOFer.

edited to add: i do think goose should have gone in (and i'm glad he did), he had many 3 inning saves....and not many one outers. when goose came in it was lights out.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

"The writers take this election seriously".


What?

If the writers take it seriously, then what the hell are they doing casting votes for Todd Stottlemyre, Shawon Dunston, Robb Nen, Rod Beck, Travis Fryman, David Justice, Chuck Knoblauch and Chuck Finley?!!!!!!!

Voting for those eight scrubs is "taking this election seriously"?????

Steve

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Posted By: John S

Ray Guy will make it this year.

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

I'm saddened about Ray Guy and all of the great batboys that haven't achieved Hall status.

Seriously though, I'm thrilled for Goose.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

if you look at who the writers have elected to the hall of fame since its inception. i think all would agree the system works.

I can attest that not "all" think the system works.

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Posted By: Mike

Jack Morris is the only pitcher who has won the most games in a decade ('80's) and not be in the Hall of Fame. He also pitched no-hitter and was great in post season play with World Series wins with Detroit and that great 1-0 game with Minnesota. If he played for New York he'd be in by now. Look at Phil Rizzuto's stats !!!! What a joke ? And Trammell and others are not in.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Not that I'd expect your mind to change about Jack Morris' Hall of Fame legitimacy, but FireJoeMorgan.com has an excellent post at the top of its home page about why Morris isn't the slam dunk you might think. That site also provides on a regular basis a myriad of examples of how baseball writers often have their heads up their collective butts when filling out their HOF ballots.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm the "dinosaur" dude on this forum, and that's fine.....as I am old enough to remember Joe Page in the 1947 and 1949 seasons.
Joe Page was the quintessential Relief Pitcher. The big southpaw would come into the game as early as the 6th inning and totally
shutdown the opposing team for 4 innings. He saved 100's of games for Reynolds, Raschi, Lopat and Shea....in regular season play
and in the World Series in the late 1940's. And, I realized as a kid how very important an effective relief pitcher was to a winning
team.

There were other great relievers that preceded Joe Page, and followed him......But, for the short career he had with the Yankees,
and especially in 1947 and 1949, he was absolutely the greatest.

Therefore, I am very pleased that Gossage, who had a long RP career with many teams, was elected to the Hall of Fame. And, I
plan to be in Cooperstown this July to see him inducted.


1947 Yankee Stadium Premiums of Joe Page and Allie Reynolds....an awesome 1 - 2 punch.




TED Z

edited scan size

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Posted By: paulstratton

I feel a little bit like John does in regards to Goose getting in, I don't mind him getting in, but not before more deserving pitchers just because he was a reliever. In Goose's one year as a starter he went 9-17. Relievers are important for sure, but saves are way overrated. 20 years from now there will be a lot more members of the 300+ save club than the 250+ win club.

You can twist Morris's stats all you want, he should still get in someday. His regular season ERA is soft for sure, but maybe he "paced" himself when he had a big lead. Guys go hard for 6 or 7 innings now and then they get taken out, Morris never wanted to give up the ball. If he wouldn't have thrown a 10 inning WS shutout I might say no, but he did.

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Posted By: JK

From the FireJoeMorgan site - good rebuttal to the Morris argument.

I was pleasantly stunned to read a glowing endorsement for Morris in the Sunday New York Times. All the sensible reasons that Morris should already be an inductee were presented. Simply, he was the best pitcher of his time (this seems to surprise some but wins and losses are the prime currency of baseball and Morris was the winningest pitcher of his full decade, the 1980s).

1. If he was the best pitcher of his time, why didn't the hallowed BBWAA -- the selfsame organization you seem to hold in such high esteem because they travel with the players -- ever vote him the best pitcher in his league? Ever? Once?

2. For that matter, why didn't they ever vote him second-best?

3. Morris started pitching in 1977. There were a lot of good pitchers hanging around at that time. Ron Guidry was pretty good in 1978. Bret Saberhagen was excellent in the early 1980s, but didn't rev up until 1984. Roger Clemens enters stage left in 1984 and kicks things into high gear in 1986. Maddux didn't show up until 1988, really, and Jim Palmer's last good year was 1982. So, Morris just happened to show up at the right time -- hitting his stride at the age of 25 in 1980 -- to have a very good 1980-1989.

He (-slash his team's batters and relief pitchers) won 162 games in the 1980s. Excellent job. Is your old buddy Jim Kaat a Hall of Famer, Ted? Because from 1966-1975 he won 162 games. That's a decade. From 1962 to 1971 he won 159. That's also a decade. Why aren't we hearing about how Jim Kaat won a ton of games from 1966-1975? Oh -- right. Because completely randomly, 1966-1975 isn't a stupidly arbitrary "clean decade."

Saying that Jack Morris should be in the Hall of Fame because he won the most games in the 1980s is like saying that lots of crazy **** is going to happen the second the clock strikes midnight on Dec. 31, 1999. Because it's the year 2000!! A round number!!! That is significant!!!!!

He was a good pitcher who won a lot of games = okay argument.

Those games are more meaningful as a group because they occurred during years that begin with 198 = irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant stupid stupid come on people we're better than this.

And his postseason exploits in a culture that reveres winners and humbles the runner-up (check on that with Fran Tarkenton, Bud Grant, Jim Kelly or Marv Levy) should be indisputable.

Postseason:

7-4 with a 3.80 ERA overall. 64 Ks and 32 BB in 92.1 innings. Not bad. 3-2 with a 4.87 ERA in LCS play. 0-1 with a 6.57 in the 1992 ALCS in 2 starts. (But he made up for it in the World Series, though, when he went 0-2 with an 8.44 ERA in two starts.)

Jack Morris pitched really really well in several postseason games, including one truly great 10-inning outing. But he also pitched crappily in several postseason games. His postseason exploits, therefore, are eminently disputable.

(Also, Fran Tarkenton, Bud Grant, Jim Kelly and Marv Levy were "humbled" to the tune of: all of them are in the Football Hall of Fame. Weird choices.)

Somehow the numbers folks have dissected Morris and point to his 3.90 career ERA (3.73 if you eliminate his final two over-the-hill years)

Do you get to do that now? It's like figure skating judging? You get rid of the two worst years? Then let's also get rid of his two best years. So, subtract 42 wins and like 450 Ks from his totals. Also, a minor drop in ERA from 3.90 to 3.73, when you get rid of his two highest year totals, highlights the fact that he was pretty consistently between the mid-upper 3's and 4's over his entire career.

or his 254 wins (the benchmark factor. [sic]

Not the benchmark factor if you are a thinking human being.

([sic] is for inexplicable lack of close parens.)

I often read pieces that degrade the presence of players already inducted to inflate another’s candidacy. That tact is distasteful. If you care, just compare Morris with his peers, including those already in the Hall of Fame. In every measure of quality, Morris is a no-brainer. In measures that are more significant to the analysts (ERA, WHIP, etc.), Morris can be tainted.

So:

If you look at "every measure of quality" (or: wins, I guess) he gets in.

If you look at "measures that are more significant to the analysts" (or, by elimination, things that are not "measures of quality") he does not.

Thus: he does not.

Problem with that thinking is that Morris was the top dog on three World Series title teams. Find me a peer who matches that claim.

So, here's your plan: first, challenge me to find a man who was lucky (and skilled) enough to be on three teams that made the World Series. Hard to do, right? And then use that like a club to beat me over the head when I say that Jack Morris might not belong in the HOF.

Also, call Morris the "top dog" of the 1992 Blue Jays Postseason despite the fact that he lost both of his WS starts, including giving up 7 ER in 4.2 IP with a chance to close out the Series in Game Five.

Indisputable!!!!!

Morris wasn’t a stat man’s lover, he just won. Let’s make sure everyone has that one more time. Morris was the number one guy on three World Series winners. And he pitched one of the two greatest postseason games in history.

Bert Blylevin's career postseason #'s: 5-1, 2.47 ERA, 38/8 K/BB ratio in 47 innings. **** him.

And if you're going to use that one awesome game 7 to bludgeon me with a pro-vote, I will use that one stinky Game 5 to bludgeon you with my anti-vote. He gave up 7 runs in 4 2/3 innings in a clinching game! He's one of the worst choke-artists in starting pitching history. He let his team down. He blew it. He's Jean Van de Velde. He's worse than Ralph Branca. He doesn't belong in the Hall of Anything. He sucks!!!!!

(Crazy, right? It's what you're doing, only from the opposition party. So cool it.)

But here’s what I remember: late September 1991 and Minnesota is trying to clinch the AL West. The Twins are in Toronto where the Jays are looking to finish off the East. Morris was in the throes of a divorce throughout the summer. Often his mind would wander and the pain that can only be known to those with like experiences would surface. That weekend in Toronto seemed to be a time when the cumulative weight of his personal life crashed down upon Morris. Yet, on a Saturday afternoon, he calmly went to the SkyDome mound and tossed a shutout at Toronto that clinched a division tie for the Twins.

Here's what I just looked up on a computer: Morris's 105 career ERA+ ties him for 460th all-time, with (among others) Zane Smith, Denny Naegle, and Paul Byrd.

After that, Game 7 of the World Series, one month later, was no surprise. And it’s why Morris passes the Leonard Koppett test --no thought needed. He is a Hall of Famer.

Even if I afford you the opportunity to apply the excellently-reasoned Leonard Koppet Test, Jack Morris demands a ton of thought. A ****ing ton. He was a very good pitcher who did some great pitching things, but cold hard indisputable facts tell us that his career just does not measure up to "no-brainer" HOFers. Greg Maddux -- no thought. Tom Seaver, Walter Johnson, Steve Carlton, Pedro Martinez, Bob Gibson -- no thought.

Jack Morris? Are you kidding me? No thought?

And by the way, you started your argument with this:

If a deep study is needed to buttress a player’s case, it is most likely an unworthy argument.

Then you talked about Jack Morris's divorce, calculated his ERA if you drop his two worst seasons, referenced Fran Tarkenton, Bud Grant, Jim Kelly and Marv Levy, and cited a game Morris pitched on September 28, 1991. This isn't a deep study?

Congratulations to Goose Gossage, an excellent pitcher who probably deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. My condolences to Jim Rice, who probably does not belong in the Hall of Fame, and was not elected. My congratulations to the BBWAA for not stretching like crazy to elect Jack Morris into the Hall of Fame. And my "What the ****?" to the one dude who voted for Todd Stottlemyre.

Let's see that argument.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I've learned about Joe Page from the great book, Summer of '49 (David Halberstam), where Ted Williams felt that Page was THE difference between those late '40s to early '50s Yankee and Red Sox clubs. Also, a great source for an insight into Page's greatness is the Miley tape of the '49 Brooklyn/Yankee World Series with Mel Allen and Red Barber. No baseball item has given me more pleasure than that book and that tape.

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Posted By: paulstratton

ERA+ is a completely overrated stat and is weighted in favor of relievers and younger starters. Dan Quisenberry is tied for 4th all time. Dave Rozema is ranked 117th, anyone gonna take Rozema over Morris? Hey look...Roberto Hernandez is 32nd all-time. Only 24 modern day pitchers(since Ruth) have more wins, but somehow he is just another average pitcher because he is ranked 400 something in ERA+? Twist away.

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Posted By: James Feagin

The fact that Blyleven isn't in the Hall is further proof of how big market/big media determines eligibility. Heck, he is so disrespected that I have a hard time spelling his name!

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Posted By: paulstratton

My favorite "Bermanism" just might be Bert "Be Home" Blyleven. Hopefully he'll get in someday.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for bringing up that great book, SUMMER of '49, by David Halberstam. Yes, Halberstam describes in great detail that season.
I was only 10 years old then....but, I remember that season quite clearly. Funny, as you approach the age of 70, your mind reverts
back to your youth and many events back then become very clear.

I highly recommend this book to Net54er's who are young. Whether you like or dislike New York scene, this book provides great insight
into post-WWII Base Ball at it's best with likes of DiMaggio, Feller, Musial, Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, etc.; and the meaning
of the "Subway Series" of that era.

Growing up then was great....we watched SATCHELL PAIGE (with his double-loop windup) and we saw JOE PAGE emerge from the Bullpen....
and we knew it was "all over" for the opposing teams.

TED Z

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Ted, I would also point out a book that I'm sure you'd enjoy: The Era, 1947, 1957 When the Yankees, the Giants, and the Dodgers Ruled the World by Roger Kahn. I was 4 in '49 and my favorite memories consist of Ted Williams at bat; there's never been anyone like him. I used to go to Fenway to see Ted and Mickey; of course the Yankees won all the chapionships, but I don't remember myself or any of my friends ever hating them. How could you hate Casey, Yogi, and Mickey, etc. As a Red Sox fan I'm just happy that it seems like it's our turn now.

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Posted By: S Gross

................. oh, darn it ...............



..................... maybe next year

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

I'm pretty sure that Woody Paige voted for Pepe Mangual this year.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

We all left out Lee Smith. He held the all time number of saves in his era. No small accomplishment.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I recently acquired "The Era, 1947, 1957" (When the Yankees, the Giants, and the Dodgers Ruled the World), by Roger Kahn.
Just haven't read it yet. How do I get the Miley tape of the '49 Brooklyn/Yankee World Series with Mel Allen and Red Barber ?

Here's a 1949 photo of a happy trio when Joe Page saved the game against the Red Sox in the last weekend of the season,
after Johnny Lindell hit his dramatic HR to put the Yankees into the World Series.





TED Z

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

You can contact Mr. Miley @ 1-800-844-9143 or 1-812-479-9143. Another gem in this collection is the 1941 All Star Game with Ty Tyson. Dugout-Memories.com carries the games also. Tapes (or CDs) show Red Barber as baseball's greatest play-by-play man. Audio quality superb.

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Posted By: DMcD

Hey, Ted Z. Here's a couple more books on the subject of NY baseball from 1947-1957 that you would probably enjoy. The first is "The Glory Days: New York Baseball: 1947-1957", edited by John Thorn. It is the companion book to an exhibit which just finished at the Museum of the City of New York. I was lucky enough to catch it when I was in NYC for a few days this past autumn; it was wonderful and the book does it great justice. I hope some of you New York guys took in the show. (MCNY link to exhibit with link to order book: http://tinyurl.com/26d2qz ). Following are a few snapshots I took and some scans from the book .


1) Exhibit entrance 2) Main Room 3) Seats from Yankee Stadium, Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds 4) Moider dem Yanks



Clem Labine in a crouch. He pitched in the Mets very first game.
Don Zimmer wasn't always a hundred years old.


Fireman Joe Page
That Mays fellow

The second book is "Summer in the City: New York Baseball 1947-1957" by Vic Ziegel. (Amazon http://tinyurl.com/yvhpvq ). Herein are 189 large black-and-white photos from the NY Daily News along with the newspaper captions from back in the day and modern commentary. Hadn't seen many of these photos before. Some real beauts. Both books are keepers.




Yankee catchers Aaron Robinson, Ralph Houk, Yogi Berra Sept '47


Bases loaded single by Mize "shoves defeat down the throats of the Brooklyn Dodgers," Game 3, '49 WS


Mapes safe at home, Sept '50. Only guy missing in this photo is the beer vendor.

This old, tech-impaired dinosaur dude just put up a MySpace page. It's a work-in-progress but I have uploaded, amongst other things, photos of our trip to the East Coast this fall. This includes more pictures of our visit to "The Glory Days" exhibit, a quick look at the Burdick display at the MMA (only stumbled across in an out-of-the-way hallway whilst looking for the Washington Crossing the Delaware painting; kinda sad), and our visit to the BBHoF and Cooperstown. Unbeknownst to me until after I loaded all the photos is that one needs a MySpace account in order to see my page - probably would have been better off in a Photobucket-type venue - so if you have said account and are interested use this URL, hit "pics" and then hit the "Baseball" album. http://www.myspace.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika

Pau

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Hey David,those are some great pictures you took. Nice work, maybe youll get some more people to join up for myspace and start a net54 group there by doing this

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Oct 8th 1956....one of the greatest games ever in BB history....and, I saw every moment of it. It has happened only once in 103 years of World Series play.






TED Z

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Posted By: Chris Counts

This is has been a fascinating thread, but it has strayed far from the subject of Rich Gossage. What impresses me most about Gossage's selection to the HOF is how few fans are criticizing the vote of a guy who waited so long to get into Cooperstown. Which is fine with me, since I've long been a supporter of his selection. This is how I look at the question of whether the Gossage is worthy of induction into the HOF. If you were a batter in the 1970s, who would you least want to bat against? I can't decide whether Nolan Ryan or the Goose is that pitcher. Don't get me wrong. Seaver, Carlton and Palmer were truly great pitchers. But I'd rather bat against any of them than face the Goose ...