What would you do?

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Leon said I could post something on this EBAY transaction/Problem?

Purchased a card for around $1200.00 a few years ago on EBAY. Received the card, left positive feedback, wrong to do this but was my 1st year on EBAY. Sent the card to SGC, they sent it back as a counterfeit. Notified seller, would not return the money, many emails and phone calls no positive response, told me I could have switched the card. Even told me the card was once in an SGC slab and he did not agree with the grade, so he took it out. I don't believe that story. I still have the card, the original ebay listing, the SGC plastic that calls it counterfeit.

Well this guy just bid and won an auction I had this weekend, a card for about 1/3 that price, $400.00. I emailed him and said sorry I cannot sell the card to you because of prior problems. He has already paid with PAYPAL and wants me to cancel the sale. I basically told him he can cancel if he wants the money back. I really don't want to make it easy for him.

I have since put him on my blocked biddder list.

Comments?

Thanks joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: pas

He won the card and paid for it, you are obligated to sell it to him.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Are you thinking of pocketing the $400 as a way to recover part of your money? Sounds reasonable on the surface, but there may be something illegal about it. But what other recourse do you have?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Show him the character and class he didn't show you -- return the money.

[Archive]

Posted By: DMcD

"But what other recourse do you have?"
Track him down and beat him like a woman.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark L

Do you risk anything by revealing the name of this dirtbag?

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

I would just refund him his money..and drop him a note refreshing his memory or what happened a few years ago..."because you chose not to be a stand up seller at that time, here is your money back. I also hope I don't have anything else for sale you'll ever be interested in, because your now officially on my blocked bidder's list. Have a great day."

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Brian's right, because if you don't then you become one of "them". However, if you can't bring yourself to do that then do what David describes.

[Archive]

Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Joe,

I remember reading your original post about the Cobb card...

If you decide to go through with selling this card to this guy (don't guess you have much of a choice)...make SURE his paypal address is confirmed and make SURE you send it in some trackable manner.

You wouldn't want to ship and have the old "I never received it..." and then have to fight with him and paypal. Not saying he would try this, but since you two have a history and he seems less than honorable...well...

Good luck!

Shawn

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Joe,
I would probably follow thru with the sale. At least its 400 for the sale and I would assume you made a little money on that item . Send it with delivery confirm and a signature. I had this same problem happen to me with and OFF LINE sale of an item , bothered me for years!! I still have the item as a reminder. Be the bigger man and take the 400. Treat it like a regular ebay win and move on.

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Hello guys, thanks for the posts to this problem. The name of the person is Brooks Newell, San Antonio Texas. In my last note to him , he said he was tired of beating a dead horse because this was a few years ago. Well he got my money, I got a counterfeit card. That's my dead horse. Some on this board know him. Someone said he has problems with his eye sight, still no reason for the original problem. Barry, I was not planning on keeping the money, but I want to make him get the money back himself. it should not be easy for him to screw me and not suffer any repercussions. There is no easy way to get solutions to some of these EBAY problem sellers. I originally contacted EBAY, USPS, and some other Government offices to get a solution with no avail.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Show him the character and class he didn't show you -- return the money.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

I've never been cheated out of such a large sum of money, but I can only hope I'd show the same character and maturity if facing a similar situation. I think Joe is handling the situation absolutely perfect. In my book, if someone has cheated you in the past, you have no obligation to assist them in any way. If the guy is stupid enough to bid on an item from someone he has cheated in the past, he should expect some inconveniences. Joe, absolutely don't sell this guy a card he wants, and don't lift a finger helping him get his "unearned" money back.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

I wouldn't sell him the card either. But I would return the money with no hassles. Two wrongs don't make a right, right?

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

Ship him back his counterfeit card and use USPS shipping confirmation. That proves delivery. He is then screwed under PayPal rules. Tell PayPal that he must have switched the card. Don't put anyting in writing to him that he can use against you. Tell him that you know that you shipped the right thing and can't believe that he is trying to pull a fast one on you. Let the weasel get some of his own medicine. (Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.)

(typo corrected)

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Or you could do that. Vargha, you always bring a fresh perspective.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

Dave V.,

Several thoughts come to mind:

1. Your thought process is mean, hateful and despicable.

2. DAMN!!! I wish I had thought of that.

3. Remind me often, to never cross you.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill

ok let me get this straight. you bought a card. years later, you try to get it graded, and comes back counterfeit. now you want the money back. i would have to agree with the seller on this one. you purchased the card, with no written guarantee its authentic. it was poor judgement on your part for buying a fake. if you are willing to spend $1200 for a card you don't no is 100% real this is a problem.

now with him winning a card you sold. you don't have to sell him the card, but return his money. show some respect that he doesn't have. come out with your head high.


i would swallow the lose and move on. stop dwelling on it.

just my 2 cents

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

Several years ago, I sold a 1952 Bowman Mantle (raw) card for about $600 on eBay. About one year later, the buyer wrote back that it was a counterfeit. I refunded his money without question and apologized. I then contacted the person who had sold it to me some nine months before I had resold it, informing him that it was a fake. He refunded my money without question and apologized. How does the passage of time negate responsibility on the part of the seller?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

T206 king, I had the card graded within 1 month of receiving the card, not years later. That's what the 1st transaction was all about.


Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: Alan

Joe -

What about going over to his home & knocking on his door, bringing the card that you purchase at that time. He gives you the $1200 back & you give him that fake card back.

Then, for this transaction, he gives you the $400 for the card he just won & you give him that correct card as he fairly won it. And, then you guys shake hands & have a couple beers together. Would that work ? Why not ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

Peter S., By no means does anyone have to sell a card to the winner in an ebay auction. That's the way it's suppose to work but not the law.

One of the beauties of ebay is there feedback, everyone is afraid to leave a negative in fear of retaliation. Thus it makes the feedback almost worthless.

By the way, if you do plan on keeping the money, I would get it out of your paypal account right away. Paypal will side with the buyer 99% of the time, even if you do everything right.

Good luck with the situation, Joe it really sucks that he would not stand behind the original transaction. I have met Brooks and he seemed like a nice guy but I have heard other stories that his eyesight has got him in trouble.

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam

I would send that person a home-made counterfeit version of whatever card you sold him for $400. Just get some paper, cut it into the size of the card, and get a few markers and take a solid 10 minutes or so to "create" the card. If it ends up looking kind of like a child's drawing, that's perfectly fine. Then mail that "card" to him along with a postive note inside the package, something along the lines of "Congratulations on winning! Please leave positive feedback and I will do the same!"

[Archive]

Posted By: anthony

when i first started reading the replies, i was thinking of the same exact thing that david was thinking. f&*k 'em!

(my only negative a few years ago was a similar situation. i sold a psa 3 ruth card to someone that was hesitant about buying it, i actually let him make 2 payments. once he got the card he cried "counterfeit"
i told him to return the card and i would take it to psa (i'm 45 min drive) he said he would take it to a show where psa was going to be but of course that was 2 weeks away and of course they said it was fake. well, since he refused to send back the card, i refused to send back his money.)

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I know Brooks as he is a customer. I've never had a problem with him, and Joe's outcome surprises me. I know that he does have some vision problems, but that has nothing to do with the issue.

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

Thought I might add a bit to this thread as I have known Brooks for many years and sold him a lot of nice cards.

Brooks is legally blind, his vision has worsened the last few years and he can barely see cards with out a monster size loupe, yet he still collects, due to his love for the hobby. In all probability he probably bought the card as real and never knew the difference. He used to sell quite a few cards on ebay to support his hobby and his income as he is on disability. That being said, I am sure when he was confronted about the issue he may have become defensive as people have tried to take advantage of his poor vision before and could have thought this was another incident like that. I am not condoning his actions just trying to provide a little additional info. Brooks can be very stubborn at times, especially if he believes he's right.

On plan B about going to his door, I would nix that idea. Brooks is a very large individual. When Brooks was in the service he was the B.A.R. man. For those that are familiar with weapons you know the type of individual chosen for that assignment.

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

That's what I call bad luck, to buy from a seller that's blind. Knowing that you got give him a break and let go of your beef.

Now I'm upset that some scumbag took advantage of a blind man.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Tony Andrea

Brian's first response say's it best in my opinion.

"Show him the character and class he didn't show you -- return the money".

Tony

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Someone who is legally blind and still has the passion to collect should at least have someone look his high dollar cards over before he sells them on ebay.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

1 question: is it that good of a reprint?....how about a scan. old saying,one picture is worth a thousand words.

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Here is scan with SGC response, next day return and original ebay listing with description. The one think I did notice when I received the card is has a lacquer finish on both sides. Sorry if scans are to large.

Joe



Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

thanks for the auction,i would think the seller should refund w/o question. the laquer finish you mentioned should seal the deal that it is the same card and a tell tale sign.

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

It appears the card is actually real. I think SGC missed the call on counterfeit, although it probably has been coated with something, either lacquer, shellac or glue, from the scan it certainly looks ok and I can see why Joe bid on it and why Brooks thought it was ok.

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

Then in court you can prove your case, he can prove his and you end up with a net $800.

If that doesn't sound appealing/feasible, follow the Golden Rule...cancel the sale with an explanation and refund the money or close the deal and forget about it. It's the only way to address situations like this in life. Otherwise, you open the door to all sorts of crap that isn't worth the time or the stomach acid.

Of course, you could also put a big, honking crease down the middle of the card before you ship it; odds are he wouldn't even notice

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

what scott said could be true but maybe they(sgc) meant to check the altered box and checked the counterfit by mistake. i would certainly send it back and see what happens as the card looks ok in the scan.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm so upset about all of this. First some scumbag rips off a blind guy. And then a blind guy rips off Joe. And now everyone wants to help Joe rip off the blind guy who ripped off Joe but who surely got ripped off by the scumbag. Third base!

I'm very upset but that's just the litigator in me.

Notice the lack of inclusion of any smileys in this post.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

That Cobb is pretty close, but certainly counterfeit.

I'd keep the money and send him a print of a horses ass -with signature confirmation of course. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity at retribution... To heck with karma. You've already been good about it -where did it get you. If he wants to push the issue, to me, it would be worth all the aggravation. I want to look up to ya Joe -nail 'em.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill

Read the auction, doesnt say 100% authentic. buyers fault!

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

I don't understand how this is the sellers fault. The seller never said in the auction that the card is 100% authentic ! He just states that its a t205 Cobb card. If you weren't 100% sure of it being authentic, then you shouldn't have bid on the card... espcially if its $1200. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if someone is willing to spend $1200 on a card that he/she doesn't know if its real, than you shouldn't be bidding on prewar baseball cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm sure I'm just a bit tired but are you guys serious? If a seller advertises a card as a T205 he also has to say 100% authentic too in order for the buying public to understand it is not a fake? Do you think the seller might have assumed that a buyer spending $1200 on a card presumed that the card was real and not a ten cent fake? If the card is advertised as a T205 it is presumed authentic unless there is a disclaimer included in the listing. If the card is a fake it is NOT a T205.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

tough crowd... if you are an HONEST seller any buyer should assume a card listed as this (1909 t206, 1933 goudey etc)listed in the proper catagory is buying a legit card. it does not have to be slabbed to be real.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

People that support crooked sellers scare me... By listing in the Pre-1930 category, isn't it a reasonable assumption that the item is Pre-1930. Get a clue

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Does anyone know if anyone from SGC reads this board? It's difficult for me to believe that SGC would mark the wrong box on this one. But, if they did and someone from SGC can look at the scan, I would be happy to send it back to them for another look if they think there is a chance for a grade or authenticate. I see 1 from the board says definitly not real and another thinks it is real.

Thanks Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Many, if not all, of the guys at SGC read this board....I thought the card looked good too but I have been fooled before. Also, I am in the minority but if someone sold me a fake and it was not refunded then I would consider the newest issue as partial payment for their not making good on it. I also consider Brooks a good guy and a friend...but this was not handled well, imo. A refund should have been given. He should have got the card back and dealt with it on his end. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- my gut is they checked the wrong box. The card looks real but with a slight trim to the bottom border. Maybe they were distracted and just made a mistake.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Some thoughts -

1. I may not be real bright, but the back of that card would have kept me from putting a serious bid on this card.

2. I also would have wondered why the seller wouldn't have graded this card to maximize the potential.

3. The seller is absolutely at fault on this. He sold this card as a 1911 T205, not a 1970's reprint.

Good luck! Let us know how this works out.

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

I would send it in to GAI (are they still in business)? and then hope 'Darren' calls and says he has a buyer for it.


Joe I sympathise with you. Any seller worth his salt would refund if a card came back like yours did. The seller in question seems to be ok to some so he is not an outright thief. 4 yrs ago i paid over 2k for a coin from a big time dealer. It was graded by a 'Gem' type grading company. After a few years had passed I sent it into PCGS for grading and it was not what the original grading company said it was. (I am not disputing the grade) I called the dealer and after a few hoops he made me jump thru he refunded my 2k+. At this point i would resubmit it to SGC and see what happens, like you stated here some say it is fake while others claim it is ok. I have no idea, you have the card in hand and should be able to make some sort of conclusion. In any event i wish you the best of luck regarding this as no one should take that type of hit.

In closing I have no idea if the seller of this card got scammed or where or when the scam (if it is in fact a counterfeit) strted.

1 more thing........expressed above is simply opinion and not stated as fact.


I think i covered myself here from unsolicited advice in which the advisor was gratious enough not to charge me for.


Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Hello Barry, they checked the counterfeit box, but look at my scans again, on the front of the toploader in large capital letters COU.


As a side note, I can fight my battles, but it sounds like a few of you know Newell personally, I'm wondering if anyone as a friend of his, has contacted him about this? He certainly was never friendly with me on this transaction and I got nowhere with him.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

For those not seeing the flaws in the counterfeit...

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- if that's a counterfeit, and I'm the first to admit that it's difficult to authenticate from a scan, it's a pretty scary one. Look at the wear on the top two corners- unlike all the fake aging done to cards, that looks like honest wear. Boy, that one could fool a lot of people.