NAT'L UPDATE???

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Posted By: MVSNYC

for those of us who did not make the trip, could some of the attendees fill us in on how it's going?

thanks!
MS

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Posted By: Bobby

I don't think Leon will mind terribly by giving you all a link to see some pictures of the National we posted.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=137

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks, but can't open pics, guess you have to be a member?

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Posted By: Bobby

You can join as a non-paying limited member and will have access to everything.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Sorry I missed you at the show today Bobby but I'll make a point to say Hi at the auction tonight.

I picked up a 1917 Zeenut Chance from Mark Macrae today so I'm happy.

SGC is SLOW in grading they are so swamped.

Fun for me to meet so many people: Ted Z.; Mark Macrae; Toby Peterson; JC; Scott; Leon; Richard M.; Jay D.; David Levin; Rob Silverman; Andrew Jerome; Matt Sear; Terry of Tik & Tik; and so many others that I forgot to mention you I apologize....wait, I met R337man, Dave Schneider (Bagger)Mr. Mastro; Doug A.; Pete Caldaron, etc, etc. For me this is the best.

All in all a good time so far.

Steve

Oh, I forgot Matt and Turner Engle (can't forget them as they are the best); Max and Zach Rice; Jim Goodfriend from back home who I have known for 30 years. I know he won't see this but I wanted to mention him.

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Posted By: peter chao

Steve,

It sounds like you are enjoying yourself. Your 1917 Zeenut Chance that you got from Mark McRae must be nice, Mark's one of the nicest dealers you will ever meet.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If anyone happens to see a Zeenut Sam Crawford could they snap a photo? I still have never seen one.

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Posted By: Justin

That SGC 98 CJ Joe Jackson is amazing.

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

The dinner was terrific. Thank you again, Leon and SGC, who helped arrange the event for everyone to enjoy. I was finally able to meet so many outstanding individuals that I've worked with over the past few years. I won't even bother listing names as there were way too many of you and I'd forget to mention at least a dozen! It was really an enjoyable time and my only regret is that I couldn't stay longer and make it around to talk to everyone a little more than I did.

As for the show itself, I did manage to make it from one end to the other in just about a day's time. So everyone was correct, you do need at least 7-8 hours (roughly one full day) to visit all the booths and make it from one end of the convention area, to the other. My girlfriend tagged along with me and endured non-stop baseball card drudgery from 10 in the morning to 10 at night. She did it very willingly and was very supportive as well throughout the whole ordeal. She even kept me from misplacing my checkbook, cards, car keys, etc...which was a big plus!

I've heard stories about prior conventions not having a very good vintage selection. I thought the selection of cards was actually pretty nice and I even got to talk to a number of great individuals who had booths set up such as Steve Verkman, Bill Goodwin and Terry Knouse who were gracious enough to take a few minutes to chat with me for a little while. A few of the prices I found on cards from various dealer tables were a little bit above what I was hoping to spend but that did not detract from the experience one bit.

In the end, I sold a couple cards, made a fantastic trade with a friend on the board for a t222 Lee Magee (thanks Mike!) and even picked up a neat t210 orange border (thanks Steve!).

Sorry if this post was a little long winded, but I had a great time and my first National was a terrific experience - better than expected. Hope to hang out with you all again at some point!

Cheers!
Brian

---edited for lousy grammar

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Posted By: Joe D.

I expect to see the BST filled with new stuff that I want to buy.

So buy buy buy at those tables.

Feel free to flip.... you will be doing a service to all who couldn't make the natl.

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Posted By: Joann

Wow. What a great trip. First National - first card show of any kind.

I have met tons of great people from Net54, and have enjoyed talking to each and every one of them. I won't try to name them all b/c I'm sure to miss someone - there have been so many. The dinner was a really nice event. Thanks to Leon for putting it together, and the insistence on name tags was a great idea - we could all pick each other out easily.

The show is really good too. I'm right with Brian McQ in that I've always heard there is no vintage material and found that not to be true at all. I thought there was a ton of vintage. A lot of it was unique items, 19th century and early 20 stuff that you just wouldn't see anywhere else. At times it kind of felt like a museum.

At almost halfway through I decided I couldn't look at vintage so closely or I wouldn't make it all the way through the room in the 8 hours I had. A lot of the modern card dealers also had some vintage cards, and some dealers taht honestly I've never even heard of had pretty extensive selections. And that's for Pre WWII vintage. If you extend into the 50's then there's a ton of it. There is so, so much that I actually kind of got numb to it after awhile. Never ever ever thought I'd see that day. Pricing? Like ebay I suppose, in that some was way over the top expensive and others very reasonable.

I didn't have any trouble walking right up to whatever I wanted to see - it was busy, but not so packed you couldn't function. Oh - and the food wasn't that bad either, and enough stands so there weren't horrible lines.

Best tips I got, and one I have for myself next time:

Whoever said to take a pen and paper and jot down what you see and where you see it was a genius. The first few things I saw I thought I'd surely remember which table, what it was. By about the second or third row that was an impossibility - there was just too much to keep track of. So I was glad I had pen and paper.

Whoever said not to buy the first thing you see was also a genius. The first table I stopped at had such cool vintage that I thought it had to be the best stuff there. Until I got to the next table. And the next.

Third genius = whoever said to wear comfortable shoes.

For myself next time, I'll go with a bit of a plan or a few things to look for specifically. To try to go just see if there would be anything I might want was impossible - there's so much it's just overwhelming to consider anything and everything that might fit my collection. There was a ton of it. Those with more advanced and extensive collections might not have this problem, but for me I think I'll do better if I have more focus.

Reporting from National, with sore feet and a cold beer, your humble correspondent.

Joann

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Posted By: Paul S

Joann -- Great inclusive report. From your feet, to the food, and in between. Thanks!

Paul S

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Posted By: Bob

Sorry for the delayed report, my laptop didn't make it to the National and the computers at the Sheraton have been horrible in connecting.
In any event, after the initial sticker shock wore off on Wednesday night, I found myself buying some cards. I came in with a narrow focus of cards I needed for sets I am working on but since those cards were not available, I ended up buying cards which just appealed to me. I bought a nice Red Sun Hickman in a GAI 4 holder from Dan McKee and a horizontal E100 Bishop (didn't even know there was a horizontal card in that set) from Tony Arnold. I bought what purported to be a PSA E93 Lajoie which was a blazer with cherry red background for a nice price and then crossed it over in to an SGC holder as an E98 which is what it was. It was the best (possibly only, real deal I got). I found some nice T207s with red Cycle backs and bought a beautiful Birmingham and a couple of other nice ones which went for about what I thought. The people I bought these from insisted on charging sales tax. It was the only dealer(s) that charged me tax. I finally convinced them to take a little off to make up for the tax they were charging me so I got them for the sticker price. It was a hassle but they were sharp.
I saw several big transactions take place. While I as purusing Tony Arnold's caramels, a collector came by and dropped about 80k on cards from him. He bought some nice caramels and 19th century stuff. Yesterday it looked like Tony made another huge sale when a collector bought several E98s from a high grade set Tony had broken out. The guy went after the Cooms, Vaughn, Walsh, etc. so he knew what he was doing, grabbing the tough cards in the set.
One of the highlights of the trip was supper last night at the 100 Bomber Group restaurant with Bill Cornell, Mike Peich, Matt Sears, Tim Newcomb, Robert, Andrew Jerome, Richard Wong, Bryan Long, Jimi Thayer and several others.
I got the chance to finally meet Matt, Andrew, Jay Miller, Zach Rice, Ken Cohen, JoAnn, Brooks Newell, Ed Hans, Todd Schultz, Mark Twylicki, James Gallo, Bruce McPherson, Brian McQueen and many other guys for the first time. Sorry, I know I am forgetting names here. Also to renew acquaintances with Scott Brockelman, Tim and Mike, Bryan and Jimi, Peter and Chris Thomas, Gary Nucherino (my favorite dealer), Scott Mosley, David Bryan, John Billingsley, and many others.
And I can not forget, last but certainly least, Leon. Leon not only put on a great dinner but we had a chance to shoot the breeze last night for a couple of hours and had a great talk about cards, the hobby, the people in the hobby, etc. I enjoyed it Leon and I look forward to seeing you again in Chicago.
A wonderful time. My calves are sore from climbing the steps in the parking lot (we parked on the top floor) at the Jake, but I had a great time. This is truly a wonderful hobby and if I hadn't picked up a single card, the comeraderie itself would have been worth the trip.
Thanks to everyone I met for being great to meet and/or hang with. See you next year at Wrigley.
tbob

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Just got home all i can say is wow. If anyone thought there would not be alot to see they were dead wrong. Anyone here ever seen a yum yum Anson? I was standing at one table and watched a t206 Plank sold. Standing at another table e90-1 Jackson sold. One thing I really noticed is that prices are still going up for tough to find and also high condition cards. If you really took the time to look you could find many things to add to your collection. The net 54 dinner was really nice. Met many people and the food was great. Standing outside the room at the open with Brian, Steve, John and his dad and a few other people, Leon was right there very nice and stated the first 550 drinks are on me! I will never forget that!! If you really enjoy the hobby you should go it really is alot of fun.

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Posted By: Sean

Tbob,
How much for the Red Sun??? Pretty please...

SDBH

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Just got back and I concur with those opinions expressed above. The best part about the National for me was the Net 54 dinner. It was great to put faces with the names that I have dealt with over the past few years. Thank you Leon for organizing the get together.

As for cards, I was chasing caramels and there were more that I thought there would be. Surprisingly I felt that prices on the cards I acquired were not that high. Most dealers that I bought from were willing to negotiate or discount their asking price and I ended up getting several e97s, 94s and some e102 upgrades, all of which I felt were at or at least close to ebay prices. Anyway, I hope the Net 54 dinner is continues next year as I will certainly be in attendance.

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Posted By: quan

tbob/bruce,

congrats on the various caramels. looks like the east coast brings out more material than last year at anaheim. i wasn't that impressed last year and it was only a 15 min drive for me.

patrick--if you don't mind what was the plank/jax's condition and the prices sold?

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Posted By: Mark L

Like everyone else, I had a great time and enjoyed meeting people from the board. Having been to at least half a dozen Nationals, it seems to me that this was the best one for getting E cards. The prices weren't too bad and the selection was impressive.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've seen a complete set of Yum Yum's

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Patrick- if the Yum Yum Anson was a portrait, it's actually Ned Williamson. That's one of those misidentified error cards. It's still a rare card but should sell for the price of an N403 non- HOFer (don't want to say common, because no Yum Yums are common).

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Posted By: Turner Engle

I am thinking about heading back up to the show tomorrow for the last day.


If I do I will take plenty of pictures for everyone who could not make it to the show this year.

Turner Engle

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Quan both cards were psa 1. I do not know final prices as there was much talking and i was looking at other cards. Barry i can only say that it was Anson on the card for sure.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Patrick- then you saw the line drawing, which does depict Anson.

Yum Yums come in portraits and line drawings. While the latter is correct, the former is an error card. Either way it is very rare.

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Posted By: Alan

I just got back from the National. I'll have a longer report later, but this was the greatest show (National or otherwise) that I've ever been to !!!

Alan

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Posted By: george gogol

I returned home last night at 10:00. I was at the show when the doors opened Friday and again on Sat. It was fantastic!! Vintage cards galore. The first several rows were very pricey and I didn't buy a thing. Then I found a fellow Michigander, Mark Irodenko of Outfield Sports and it was all over. I picked up a total of 29 t206's and 1 T201. Ted Z. and Scott Brockelman (sorry if I butchered your name Scott) sold me several t206's. It was great meeting guys from the board and buying from my favorite dealers, Dave S. (Bagger) and his pal Frank, along with Outfield Sports. I couldn't believe how many dealers were paying high prices for anything prewar. I wanted to trade and they would rather give me cash, that worked just fine for me.

On Sat. my parents came up from Dayton and went also. My dad also collects the monster and added several HOF'ers he needed. My mom had a ball and started her own set, the Meeca Double Folds (T201). It was a great weekend and I can't wait for Chicago!

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Posted By: bcornell

This National was an improvement over Anaheim in 2006. I had a narrow focus on a few T cards I needed and did okay. It wasn't busy even on Saturday, but that isn't a surprise, as it's hard to draw crowds anywhere now. More money changing hands on fewer deals - that's the new National.

Any of these shows has a few odd moments. I'll pick these 3 from Cleveland:

1. The lonesome "vitamin supplement" table that had a huge jug with a long hose attached... we were wondering if he drew a curtain when you inquired about it.

2. T222's, D311's, Gypsy Queens, and several other obscure issues. Scarce cards you usually never see were scattered across several tables. Probably a fluke, but money has a habit of making things surface.

3. Seeing Don Larsen hanging out in the Sheraton bar. I wanted to ask him for Yogi's number.

Edited to add: this show is gravitating toward being permanently in the Midwest and I doubt anything is going to stop that. The guys running it are focused on not spending money. Anaheim was not successful and most East Coast locations are too expensive (although I did hear that Baltimore is a possibility). NYC, Boston, Philadelphia = not a chance in hell. We will probably wind up with a Chicago/Cleveland rotation.

Bill

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Posted By: sonny

This year was my inaugural trip to the national, and it was an experience that far exceeded my expectations. I was able to purchase a few cards that I've always wanted and examine several true rarities...cards that I'll likely never see again and certainly never be able to afford. But the most memorable aspect of the trip was bumping into an old friend, making a few new friends, and talking cards...my wife never lets me talk cards around the house .

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Posted By: peter chao

Bill,

More money changing hands on fewer deals, it sounds like my friend was right, 80% of the buyers were dealers.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Bob

Peter- I don't think that what was Bill meant. Bill can certainly speak for himself but I think he meant that there were more high dollar cards which were being bought by a smaller number of collectors. With prices shooting up and cards drying up, the days of the albums of tons of T206s and other cards at lower conditions and prices appears almost over. What you have is display cases with higher priced cards like Ramlys, caramels, etc. BUT if you watched carefully it was the Tim Newcombs, Bill Cornells, Matt Sears, Bryan Longs, etc of the world who were buying these up and not a single one is a dealer. When I see one collector plunk down $80,000 for vintage cards at a table and know he is a collector not a dealer, I think your friend's estimates are all wet. You should have seen all the nice cards I saw that were scooped up by collectors, not dealers. Ask one of the board members here who is strictly a collector to show you his 6 E94 Cobbs, one of each color or to tell you about his friend who picked up the gold E94 Wagner PSA 5 there. These are collectors my friend so I guess we can agree to disagree...
tbob

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Posted By: bcornell

Peter -

You've got the wrong end of the stick. I meant that cards are more expensive and not as many people go to the National, hence the deals are for more money. QED, as my calculus teacher used to say.

There's no way Kevin (your source, who I know) meant that 80% of attendees/buyers are dealers. Ask him for clarification.


Bill

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Posted By: peter chao

Bill,

You know Kev? I'm pretty sure that included in the 80% are people that sell part time on E-bay. My guess is that around 75% of us do sell on E-Bay, now if you include the 5% that are full-time dealers you have 80%.

Peter C.

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Posted By: bcornell

Peter -

Selling on eBay... yes, that qualifies almost everyone as a dealer, myself included. Which, now that I think about it, answers your earlier question about the "golden era" of cards: it's right now. I am a dozen cards from finishing the T204 set. When I started in the late 80's, I hadn't seen 75% of the cards except in Frank Slocum's book. Progress!


Bill

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Posted By: Ed Hans

What a terrific five days! The Net54 dinner was great and the Mastro auction was a once-in-a-lifetime event (for me, at least). Sales were excellent; and there was some spectacular material to view. Best of all was meeting some folks who share my passion for old cards. In no particular order: Scott Brockleman, Scott Moseley, Dan McKee, Jim Manos, Bill Cornell, Tony Arnold, Lyman & Brett Hardeman, Charlie B., Max & Zach Rice, Matt & Turner Engle, Bob Marquette, Tim Newcomb, Bruce McPherson, David Levin, Ryan Christoff, Richard Masson, Robert Silverman, Adam Warshaw, the Mastro team (Chris Porter, Pete Calderone, Brian Marren, and even Mr. Mastro himself), and especially our moderator dude, Leon. Apologies to anyone who I've forgotten and for any spelling errors. I had a great time!

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Posted By: Bryan Long

I very much enjoyed the show. It was great meeting everyone. The Indians game was great, actually got a chance to see them win. Many thanks to Bob Marquette, Mike Piech, Tim Newcomb, Leon, Rob, Brian McQueen and many others - it was great talking with all of you. And, to anyone who just is not sure whether they should make the trip for the nationals. It is much more than a baseball card show. I have made many long lasting friendships and the show is something that I look forward to all year long.

EDITED: For horrible typing skills.

.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

I would like to chime in and agree wholeheartly that the dinner was the highlight. To those of you with whom I had a chance to chat and get acquainted, it was a real pleasure. Leon, great meeting you and thanks again for your efforts in putting the whole thing together. And Bruce, thanks for your offer but by Friday afternoon I was saturated and decided to head home. I'm already looking forward to next year's show where I hope to get together with some of the folks I didn't get the opportunity to meet this time. Just too many at the dinner to get to everyone.

Oh yea, I was able to make good progess on the E120 set I'm working on. Prices were higher than before but all-in-all not too bad; at least it wasn't equal to the recent craziness on Ebay.

On the "new card" front, I was able to pick up the couple of cards needed to finish a '54 Dan-dee set.

Ken

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Posted By: DJ

I enjoyed my time at the National this year and even stopped Leon for a short chat.

I had a mid-level want list that I hoped to fill and put a small dent in it, but not as big of a dent as I had hoped.

The one thing that I noticed was in fact that even I had the "I could get that cheaper on eBay" mentality. There were certain holes I needed to fill in a specific grade (PSA8) and was disappointed to find that item marked up three times what the seller should have it marked at.

There was one hockey card in specific that was marked up 200% from the SMR (a not so rare $150 card for $450) and I overheard the following dialogue between this seller and a friend of his who walked up to his table.

Seller: This guy had the nerve to complain about my (bleeping) prices. (Bleep) him. If he doesn't want to buy my (bleeping) card, he doesn't have to. It's his (bleeping) right to walk away, but don't tell me my prices are too high!

I guess everyone's exit strategy is eBay. It's not like the good old days when people wanted to get rid of items in the last day so they could pay for their table.

I found three e107 cards. One common POOR at $1000. I took a walk and returned and it was $1100. What can you say? The card hobby is hot! That goes for a small beverage at the show as well. $2.50 on Thursday and $2.75 on Friday. I was able to bring home with me like forty pounds of catalogs and it seems like everyear there are new auction companies popping up and I now know way too much about Heritage. Oh, does American Memorabilia really need to do a catalog/sports magazine where scantilly clad women wear game used uniforms?

Either way, A LOT of nice items...A LOT of pricey items, but mostly it's about the energy of being in the room with a whole bunch of fellow collectors. It's really a shame that the show is basically dead because they really are fun.

Because the autograph world is so full of stress, I talked to one autograph dealer who said:

"You know what? Baseball card collectors just seem to have so much fun collecting compared to autograph collectors."

DJ

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Posted By: Turner Engle

DJ:

I actually had an experience similar to yours.

I went to a dealer's table, and there was an SGC graded T205 I was looking at. The sticker price was $100. I offered $80, and he turned it down. He told me that it was priced to sell and he needed $100 on it. I went back the same dealer next day to buy the card and his sticker price had changed to $125.

Turner Engle

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Posted By: Alan

Now, here's my longer National report. This was one of my most enjoyable experiences for a show (as a mini-vacation) that I've ever had. Period.

I drove to Cleveland on Wed, Aug 1. (I didn't go to the show on Wed.) Had dinner downtown & went to the Erasure (1980's New Wave band) concert at the House of Blues (same place as the Mastro Live auction was). Great concert !!!

I went to the show both Thurs & Fri all day. Absolutely incredible show !!! It had so much material from vintage stuff to the shiny stuff and everything in between. Cards, memorabilia, autographs, etc,... absolutely everything. It was great seeing collectors & dealers that I haven't seen for a while. I was really physically exhausted by the end of the show.

I absolutely loved the network54 dinner. It was easily the highlight of the entire Cleveland trip. Period. I wouldn't have missed it for the world. It was great meeting EVERYONE from the message board. I'm not even going to try to name everyone I met that night. Great conversations with all. I did notice that some people at the dinner were a lot more shy/reserved than they are on the forum. After the network54 dinner ended, I did walk over to the bar, but I didn't stay for more than a few minutes.

On Friday, I was invited to attend the PSA registry lunch (thanks to a friend) even though I don't have a single card graded. Still, it was really nice meeting the PSA registry guys. They all seem to enjoy the friendly competition of the registry. PSA's Joe Orlando did a Q & A session. The food wasn't half bad, either.

Since I could not afford to attend the Mastro live auction on Fri, I went out to dinner with a long-time collector friend, then headed downtown to the warehouse district to a bar/nightclub. I left Cleveland Sat morning.

Even though I had very little money to spend at the National, I had a hell of a great time !!!

Alan

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

where in 2009? Odd that we didn't hear about it after the normal business meeting. Does that mean it hasn't been decided yet for 2009 or what? Or did I just not hear about it............?

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Posted By: Vincent

I thought the National Show in Cleveland was a great show. I attended Thursday session and was absolutely pleased at the variety of vintage cards and autographs available.

As primarily an autograph collector, I had quite a different experience than that of either D.J. or Turner. I made vintage autograph purchases with four different dealers, and all four dealers knocked anywhere from 10-20% off the total marked price, without my asking. If they are looking for my return business, the discounts certainly have earned them exactly that.

I'm looking forward to next year's show in Chicago.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"does American Memorabilia really need to do a catalog/sports magazine where scantilly clad women wear game used uniforms?"

--Yes, absolutely. In fact, Mastro should follow suit and have models in lingerie fondling the slabs in their listings.

I had a really nice time at the show, despite the 7-11 prices at many tables. The dinner was a blast and quite impressive, with over 100 people there. And anyone who didn't hang out at the bar in the hotel every night missed a lot of fun. Prices were high but people were paying them. I grotesquely overpaid for a T card I needed, after 2 days of procrastinating. You had to have quite a bit of flexibility in terms of what you were searching for to avoid being frustrated. While I'd gone there to chase cards for my Exhibit and boxing sets, plus a few T baseball cards, I picked up quite a few obscure items, including a Diamond Dust punchboard Joe DiMaggio, a 1967 Topps Venezuelan Stan Musial, some W590 boxers, a 1950 Drake's Warren Spahn (literally as I was leaving on Sunday for the airport), some nice 1933 and 1934 Goudey, some nice strip cards, a chunk of a T68 set, etc.

Did anyone here get busted for bringing outside food or drinks into the IX? I watched quite a few people have their coolers emptied or their water jugs confiscated.

Ebay casts a huge shadow over the show; everyone was talking about what the cards go for or would go for on ebay. I found myself frequently calculating what I'd pay for something versus ebay and also deciding whether to purchase items I don't really collect based on their resale value on ebay.

The rumor I heard is that the National's board was negotiating for 2009 in Cleveland during this show.

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Posted By: Bob

<The rumor I heard is that the National's board was negotiating for 2009 in Cleveland during this show.>

Let's hope not.

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Posted By: Art M.

Terry Knouse confirmed to me on Sunday, Aug. 5 that the 2009 National Convention will be held in Cleveland.
Art M.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

And you know, that's not really all that bad.

I thought the venue was more than adequate, easy to get to, easy parking.

The Sheraton was very nice though its breakfast buffet needs some serious work.

The ability to accomodate the dinner at the Sheraton was a plus.

Downtown Cleveland was easy to get to. The House of Blues was deluxe. I would expect that given the success Mastro had with this last live auction that it will become an annual event.

The drive from Chicago isn't bad and I expect that the drive from the East coast is about the same.

So I guess that leaves the West coast and South out but you know if you plan early, and remember you are going to Cleveland, cheap airfares should be readily available.

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Posted By: Alan

2008 - Chicago
2009 - Cleveland
2010 - Nothing decided, but I heard Baltimore was a possibility...

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Posted By: boxingcardman

These second rate venues remind me of an old joke: A plane is flying from DC to NY in bad weather. The pilot comes on and announces, "Ladies and gentlemen, due to the bad weather in tne New York area, we are landing in Philadelphia." A drunk yells back, "Philadelphia? I'd rather crash in New York than land in Philadelphia!"

Ah, Cleveland isn't so bad. It's rather like an old ratty sweater; looks like hell, should be replaced, but it is convenient so you just keep wearing the damned thing.