Can someone provide me with a "beginner's guide" to the National?

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

I was reading the other threads currently circulating on the board about our upcoming event. It's an exciting time in our hobby for sure and I'm thrilled to say that I'll be attending at least the dinner on August 2nd as I'll be in town for a couple days around that weekend visiting my girlfriend's family. I may even be able to come out for a day for the convention itself depending on if I can talk the girlfriend into giving up a day of our trip to go look at baseball cards

It's exciting for me because so many people that I've known and worked with for years are going to be there which makes the dinner the priority for me. What I really want to do is simply meet as many of you as I can. The only concern is that I've never been to one of these before and I've not been to any baseball card show at all since I was about 11. So, I'm not really knowing what to expect from either the dinner or convention itself and was hoping to get a thread started where people could just sort of share their experiences a bit so myself, and possiby others that have never been will know what they're in for.

For starters, I have a couple questions. I will be staying in the nearby city of Canfield, so I'm covered off there. I also know that I'll be attending the dinner on August 2nd. Aside from those two aspects of the trip, I'm kind of clueless on how everything else runs and what to expect. If I was wanting to buy tickets for the convention itself, where would I go, how much would they be and are there different rates for the amount of time you spend there? For example, could I just as easily buy a pass for one day as I could the whole week? Is there a better day and/or time to attend the convention and what hours is the convention open? Do people typically go multiple days and then stay the entire day or maybe spend an hour or two there each time? How is the parking up at the convention center?

Thanks guys, I appreciate any input. Hoping to see you all there...and somebody please save me a seat at the dinner!

Brian McQueen

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Posted By: Rich Klein

I'd buy a ticket for the National. I'd purchase the VIP Pass which enables you to get into the show a little earlier each day AND gets you some lovely gifts from the corporates and some free autographs. You can purchase the VIP Pass on-line I believe

In addition, since you know many members of the board, I suspect that some of them would be happy to have you join them for dinner/after hours chat.

For purchasing items, the show is too darned large to hit in one day, I believe it would take 2-3 days to do the show correctly. My plan is to be around Wednesday through Saturday; by Sunday, the endurance contest really kicks in and most dealers are quite ready to go home, some are willing to make deals, others just get the heck out of dodge. In my National dealing days, Sunday was always a day I just wanted to make a few $$$ and get out of town as early as possible.

There is a list of all the vendors on the National site. You can determine how many of them you wish to look at their material. Many members of this board end up at Scott Brockleman's table to hang out.

If you are close enough to the show and at one of the host hotels; take the shuttle bus, if not, drive to one of the hotels and take the bus, no reason to spend the extra $$$ for parking. (If no parking charge, delete this line)

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

What Rich said is very true. You can't do the show in one day. Be prepared to overpay for mediocre food inside the hall. Realize that you will be standing on concrete and bending over dealer cases most of the time, and the older you are the more uncomfortable this becomes! Wear some good shoes. Make a note of the booth number you want to return to later on in the day because you won't remember how to find it. There are probably only about ten dealers that will have anything you are interested in but the will be scattered throughout the hall. Get your tickets in advance throught the web site. The VIP pass is worth it. The first thing I do is find a kid to give all of the VIP freebies and autograph tickets to so that I don't have to lug them around. Take a load off at Leon and Scott's table periodically.

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Posted By: Bryan Long

Everyone so far is right. The national is something you can really enjoy in one day. It takes longer, but if don't have a choice you really need to make note of the dealers you want to see and find them out. After you find the guys you want to see you can take your time just strolling around. Unlike the other guys - if you only are there for one day - just get the one-day pass is my opinion. No need to get the VIP pass unless you really want the autographs. My guess is the girlfriend won't be wanting to hang out at the national all day - so I don't think that there is any need for a VIP pass. When I went to Chicago I just bought my ticket at the front gate and walked in, I didn't have to wait in line - I may have gotten lucky

You might be able to park at the hotel across the street. That is where the dinner will be located. If they have spots that is.

Your ticket that you buy will let you in all day. To my knowledge there are no ticket prices for only certain amounts of time. Others will be able to correct me if I am wrong.

As for a better time to attend the national that depends on who you ask and how much money you have. Deals can be found, but you have to work really hard at it. With the little amount of cash that I will be bringing there is no need to try and get there early or late - I won't be able to afford most of what I need or want anyway If you can go for the whole day you need to - my first national was quite an experience and nothing that I could have done in only a couple of hours.


.

EDITED: Because I kept forgetting to answer questions.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Brian--

A few more points:

1. Obviously the VIP pass is pointless if one day at the show is all you have. You can buy advance single-day tickets at the show website. http://www.nsccshow.com/vip_tickets.shtml

These tickets are good for any one day so it would give you flexibility on which day to go, yet you'd have a ticket already and wouldn't have to stand in ticket lines.


2. No offense, but I would say if you are this deeply into the hobby and haven't been to a show since you were 11, you NEED a girlfriend who can spare you for a day and evening (especially if she is visiting her own family, my God!).

3. The obvious day would be Thursday, since it's the day of the dinner, it's early in the week, and unlike Wednesday, you could have a full day at the show. A bunch of us have Indians tickets for the Thursday noon game, so you might not see as many of us at the show as on Friday, but most everyone will be at the dinner in any case.

4. What else? Pack your wantlist and tradebait. Expect overpriced parking, bad food, and a hell of a lot of fun!

Looking forward to meeting you, Brian!

Tim

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

My wife is from Canfield and she's going with me, staying in Canfield while I stay in Cleveland with 3 buddies........I'll be going back to Canfield on Friday night I think or Saturday afternoon. Anyway, I agree with all the guys above, but, having bought VIP passes in the past, the only thing they're really good for is getting in early unless you like shiny stuff. You can go to the National's website and see the overhead layout of the show and an Excel listing of 350-400 dealers who'll be there, so you might lay out your game plan that way if you have limited time.

My wife fortunately understands I need at least 3 days, so her and the baby will be with her best friend, who just had a baby, so she'll run interference for me till I get back to Canfield.......

Have always had good experiences at the I-X center and great buys there. Hopefully it'll be the same this year. The parking situation is great there and the food is the same at all other shows.......marginal at best......

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Posted By: Alan

I agree with the others. Because of the auction houses & ebay, the National has changed focus a little over the years. It's now more of a social convention for a lot of collectors. Take advantage of that aspect by going to the dinner, meeting other collectors, dealers, etc,...

I will be not be going to the show on Wed. - the dealers’ bargain bins aren’t out yet. So, I’m contemplating what I want to do that afternoon. One of the possibilities that I’m considering is visiting the Pro Football HOF in Canton. If anyone else is interested in a meet-up at the Pro Football HOF on Wed afternoon, e-mail me at Jewishathletes@yahoo.com

Alan

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Posted By: Rich Klein

The Pro Football HOF in Canton has their induction ceremony the Saturday of the National. If I were a dealer and I had an extra person or two, I would send them there to get some autographs to sell either Sunday or at a later date.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Max Weder

Find a dinner date with a thick wallet

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Posted By: anthony

...never been to cleveland personally but from what i've heard, maybe a gun with some extra magazines

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Posted By: Ed McCollum

"Boy, people sure are messy when they eat here. Look at all the ketchup on the sidewalk."

"Dad, what did she mean she "would do both you and the boy for $20" (this was at about 9:30 in the morning in front of a bank we were walking in front of)

Advice-Stay between Euclid St. (Ave?) and the Lake. The further from the lake you go downtown, the more ketchup in the streets.

Cleveland would be great place to visit for three days. We were there for four. Don't forget the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Traveling exhibits there are interesting.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I'd add:

Parking is ample at the center so no worries there.

You absolutely should buy a VIP pass even if you are there only one day because (1) it gets you in earlier and (2) if the warden can grant you a little more work-release, you can hit another day.

BYO snacks and food. What they serve there is the food prison riots are made of.

Do NOT park at the hotel and try to hoof it over there--it is a lot farther than it looks, and a rather desolate walk too.

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Posted By: leon

Adam is right....it's a very long foot walk from the closest hotels over to the IX Center. There are free shuttles about every 30 minutes to go over....

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Posted By: Alan

Is parking free at the Sheraton all the time ?

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Posted By: Dave S

Brian--I live 15 minutes from Canfield, which is about a 1 1/2 hr drive to I-X Center (depending on traffic). If your wife stays in Canfield, don't allow your buddies to talk you into hitting "The Flats"..a block of gentlemen's clubs. You'll never make it to the show!!
And take alot of money..more for The Flats than the I-X!!

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

I was debating on attending the National on Thursday or Friday. I was wondering if there is an "optimum" day to attend based on the number of dealers that are set up, and the selection that they have available. Are most of the dealers with a decent vintage selection already set up starting Thursday morning? Is it safe to say that by the end of Friday that a lot of the material will have already been "picked over"? If you had a choice (and only one day to attend), would you rather be there on Thursday or Friday? Also, does anyone have a list of dealers and corresponding booth numbers? Just trying to plan my week - any help would be appreciated.

Eric

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Posted By: leon

If I had to choose from those two days I would choose Thursday. Earlier is better and there will be less stuff picked over. Wednesday is mosly set up day and a lot of dealers (or pseudo dealers) will not be selling on Wed so Thursday is the first real day.

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Posted By: Alan

Eric -

Good question. If you only had one full day, I would go Thursday. It might be a little less crowded than Friday and more stuff might still be around than on Friday (plus that night is the network54 dinner). Note, though that Friday is free for kids (for those who are bring any kids).

Alan

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Posted By: Andy

In general how much will prices vary over Ebay prices? Ex. if you are looking at something in the $50 dollar range on Ebay do you expect to pay $75 at the National?

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

Comparing apples to apples, I think, in general, you will probably pay less at the National than on e-bay for vintage material (thats been my experience at larger shows, and I'm sure it will depend upon the seller, rarity of the item, etc.). Thanks to those who responded to my previous post.

Eric

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Posted By: Mark L

I hope that recent strong interest and high prices leads dealers to bring even more vintage material than they have in the past.

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Posted By: Alan

Have the number of dealers selling vintage cards increased, decreased, or stayed the same over the last few Nationals ?

Alan

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Posted By: peter chao

Alan,

My guess is that you will see a lot more vintage card dealers this year than in the past couple of years. The dealers are businessmen and don't chances.

With the publication of The Card which deals with the T206 Wagner, there is some chance that the vintage card market will start going downhill. So there will be more dealers blowing out excess inventory.

If you want the best deals, go to the National on the last day, the dealers that didn't do well in the prior days will probably give you significant discounts.

Peter

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Posted By: Mark L

Peter,
Exactly what is it in that book that is supposed to dissuade the average collector from adding to his mid-range collection of t206's or 52 Topps's?

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Posted By: peter chao

Mark,

Every market has it's ups and downs, the vintage market has been going up substantially the last few years, and the sale of the Gretzky T206 Wagner for 2.5 million led to another surge in the Vintage market.

However, The Card questions the value of the Wagner and the ethics of both grading companies and Mastro, this could possibly lead to a downturn for highend vintage. If the high-end stuff drops, then the average stuff normally follows. This of course is only an educated guess.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, can you actually say with a straight face that a book that has already come out, been widely lambasted by those most knowledgeable in our hobby, has hit its 'height' of popularity weeks ago (which was never very high) and then plummeted to the remainder bins of every bookstore which stocks it might be the trigger which leads to the downturn in the vintage card market? Might there be a few other catalysts more significant than this book?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Jeff,

It is obvious that Peter C is no longer in the market for the the PSA 8 Wagner as a result of reading The Card. Given his level of sophistication in hobby matters it is easy to extrapolate the demise of the entire vintage market.

Greg

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Posted By: peter chao

One of these days you're going to shock me by agreeing with one of my opinions.

Peter

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Posted By: PSpaeth

Peter C., I think what you are missing (among other things, perhaps) is that speculation about the Wagner being sheet cut/trimmed/both has been rampant for many many years. If Mr. Mastro had come out and said, "I trimmed it and PSA graded it anyway," or Mr. Lifson had come out and said "I have first hand knowledge it's trimmed," or PSA had admitted it knowingly slabbed a trimmed card, that might have some broader impact. But obviously none of those things happened. So I don't really know why you would think this would have any effect.

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Posted By: peter chao

Everybody knows that on the last day of the National, dealers are more willing to give discounts just because it's a hassle to bring three-quarters of your inventory home. Well during this boom period in vintage cards, probably many dealers have been buying items from the auction houses, and they have seen the items they purchased go up in value.

As business-people they are cautious, so they read the Card or this forum and they decide a vintage card market is like any other market, it is the blue chip stocks (T206 Wagners and similar items) that signal whether a boom period is coming or a down-turn.

The Card questions the integrity of PSA and a major blue chip, now is time to reduce your excess inventory.

Most dealers that have been in the business any length of time knows that boom periods cannot last forever.

It's great for collectors, we get to complete our collections.

A downturn is normal for any market, I didn't say that a major depression would occur.

Peter C.

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Posted By: PSpaeth

Peter C., honestly I have no idea what you are talking about. Find me ONE dealer who is worried about the fallout from Mr. O'Keefe's book and has sought to reduce inventory as a result.

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Posted By: leon

Lets start a new thread about this or continue this discussion in the other thread that this subject pertains too. This thread is for my friend Brian M. to get some advice on the National.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Peter C- Even I am baffled by your last post.

"The Card" deals with a single high profile item. The hobby consists of thousands of serious collectors and hundreds of thousands of items. I see a scant connection at best.

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Posted By: bcornell

Everybody knows that on the last day of the National, dealers are more willing to give discounts just because it's a hassle to bring three-quarters of your inventory home.

This is not correct. There are very few discounts of any kind to be found on the last day. Dealers are rarely willing now to part with inventory because practically everything is too valuable and likely to go up in the short term. Not to mention that they can sell it the next day on other venues.

The best day to be at the show is Thursday - it only gets harder after that. I've found that one of the best sources for cards is other buyers. It helps to ask.

Edited to add: No one cares about "The Card" and no one ever will.


Bill

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Posted By: Cat

Peter C:

The one thing you are right about is the liklihood of a down-turn or even a crash in card values. In my view, you are off on what will be the triggering event though ("The Card" won't contribute to it).

The triggering event is unpredictable but will happen. My belief is that it will be a more general economic durnturn that will subsequently splatter onto the card market.

There are two issues, as I see it, that will help nudge cards into a severe down-turn or a crash. But, perhaps the down-turn/crash won't happen until cards add another 100% or 200%. The first issue is that, I believe, at any given time there is vast inventory held by dealers/flippers. By nature, most won't or can't hold this inventory indefinately. Economic downturn always breeds frenzy... this frenzy would be a frenzy of selling. The second issue is something that has always amazed me. People, it seems to me, to often buy cards using debt. It's easy to pay back debt when you are flipping for profit, but when you flip at a loss (which has to happen some day), it will just compound the problem of decreasing card prices. Kind of like buying stocks on margin as an example.

The part that makes down-turns/crashs the most brutal is that they always happen when you least expect it. People normally overreact to a downturn as they commmonly overreact to the frenzy on the way up.

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Posted By: Brian Lindholme

Alas, I cannot make it, but the opening thread does ask legitimate questions that are overrun by ridiculous comments about a book that means very little in the scheme of things.
Afterall, I am not sure how many of us on this board have read the dumb book, but I don't see too many clearance sales in progress on the BST, so let's talk about the protocols at the National.

First off, do dealers take credit/debit cards at the National? How about checks?
If I do get to go next year, I'm not too crazy about walking around with massive amounts of cash...I used to do so at the local Albany, NY shows, but this is not the same.

Next, what about the prices. One poster mentioned that the prices might be better for the buyer than most final eBay or auction house prices. Why is that? Why not stay home and sell in those venues if you are going to make more money as a seller? Isn't the overhead of selling at the National Convention fairly high?

I obviously have not attended a show of this magnitude...can you easily access the tables to search through dealer's wares or is it so crowded that buyers feel claustrophobic and continue browsing without digging in?

Thanks
Brian L
familytoad

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Posted By: bcornell

Brian -

A lot dealers do take checks or credit cards. That said, cash is king and you see some prodigious wads flashed around the room. It's often easier to get discounts if you look ready to peel off large bills.

I've been to the last 4 Nationals and the prices just get more inflated each year. Much higher generally than those you see on eBay and even from auction houses. You often have to hold your nose and pay up; no one wants to trek to Cleveland and come home empty-handed. The aisles are not crowded anymore. At Anaheim, they were spacious enough for tumbleweeds.

Bill

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Posted By: peter chao

The discussion on the downturn has been moved to thread about "the Impact of the Card."

Peter

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Posted By: Alan

As I've said many times, the focus has really changed at the National. It used to be that cards were sold more there, but now not as much IMHO. Nowdays, there is ebay plus the many auction houses. A lot of selling is from dealer to dealer. A lot of high end collectors attend, but I'm not sure how much they actually buy there.

Alan

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I must be the only collector here who finds cards he really needs and decently priced cards at every National. You have to work at it, though. You cannot stroll a few aisles and expect a dealer to throw E cards at your feet. You also have to be flexible. If you go in there saying you are only going to look for E107 Wagners, you are probably going home empty-handed. If you look for bargains wherever they are found in the hope of using them as trading fodder later, you may get some great stuff. I've picked up cards I don't "want" at the National because they are such a great deals. And it doesn't hurt your cause to talk to dealers and other show-goers. Tell the attendees here what you want, give them your cell #, and you may get some nice finds.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

I have been to two Nationals in last 4 years. Unfortunately I won't be able to make it this year. At the National 4 years ago I arrived on Thursday with a lot of vintage cards to sell and I sold every item within an hour at great prices. I found several dealers that had great deals on lower grade goudey's, diamond stars, T205's, and other vintage, so I went home with some great items. The dealers weren't busy, so I could ask questions, check out the card, and look at everything.

I was excited to go again last year, but I went on Saturday. I took another good size lot of cards and memorabilia, but I didn't sell much of it. The dealers weren't interested, and the offers that I received were extremeley low so I took most of it back to my car. As far as buying, the prices were high, many dealers didn't want to offer discounts, and the tables and aisles were so crowded that I couldn't get to some of the tables to look at the cards. The dealers were so busy selling that they didn't have time to look at the items that I was selling. I found a few good items, but overall it was disappointing.

My advice to first timers is mainly the same as some of the earlier people who responded. Wear comfortable shoes, carry a large shoulder bag or a pack for your cash, want lists, top loads, plastic cases, and a small box for graded cards. Leave your coat/jacket/sweater in your car. it will be warm at the show. Bring a pen and a notebook to keep track of your purchases and to make a map of dealer booths so you can remember where you saw particular items. Don't pay the listed price for anything. Many times the dealers will offer you a discount before you ask for one. It doesn't hurt to ask for a larger discount that the one that they offer. If you are looking for specific items in specific grades, make a list of the prices that you are willing to pay. It is easy to overpay at the show. If you look hard enough you will find a few bargains, but it may take some time. Bring a small flashlight,a loupe, and a magnifying glass. Bring some $1 bills and $5 bills. It is surprising how many dealers don't have enough change.

When you see a card in a dealers showcase with no price, and you ask the dealer how much he wants for it, usually if he says, "hold on a minute, I'll look it up", you can count on the dealer asking for much more than it is worth. Generally he will be looking for suckers who are willing to overpay, or he really doesn't know how much it is worth and he is "fishing" to see what you will offer. It seems like some of the dealers don't like to acknowledge that you are looking at their cards, and that you may like to buy something from them. They are too busy eating, reading, or sorting their cards to look up and say "hi". It also seems that the dealers who do acknowledge you, talk to you, and ask you questions are the ones who are willing to be flexible on their prices. Some of the dealers are there to sell their cards and turn over their inventory, and some seem to bring the same overpriced crap to show after show.

You will have a blast at the show even if you don't buy anything. The variety and quality of the cards is amazing. See you next year in Chicago.

Rick

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Posted By: Fred C

Bring lots of $$$$$$

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Posted By: peter chao

People do bring a lot of money. The dealers do a lot better at the National than local shows in general.

Peter

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Posted By: Alan

I agree with Rick !!!