wouldnt it be greart to start an all out get what you want offensive

[Archive]

Posted By: sean

We should coordinate an offensive on here so everyone can get cards they want. Perhaps make a list of sets and who collects them and then have a lotto to see who goes first. Then that person gets to bid on the item for sale and so on. Even create sub catagories for particular cards needed. this would undoubtably cause a drop in card value but so what? ahhhh to dream

[Archive]

Posted By: Glenn

Ah, the prisoner's dilemma...

Let me go first. I call the pre-1930 baseball card category.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...a pyramid scheme to me!

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Actually, that's not a bad idea. We can take a survey...there's that nasty word again of the top 5 cards wanted by Net54 members and what we would be willing to pay for the cards.

Then we could scour the internet looking for these cards and bid on the cards after they've been located. We could create a Net54 slush fund and pool resources to make the purchase.

After the card is purchased we could sell the card to a member that's willing to pay the most.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty

Peter, you may want to consult an attorny, but what you are suggesting, I believe is illegal. The term is either bid rigging or collusion.

Bid suppression occurs where some of the conspirators agree not to submit a bid so that another conspirator can successfully win the contract.
Bid rotation occurs where the bidders take turns being the designated successful bidder, for example, each conspirator is designated to be the successful bidder on certain contracts, with conspirators designated to win other contracts. This is a form of market allocation, where the conspirators allocate or apportion markets, products, customers or geographic territories among themselves, so that each will get a "fair share" of the total business, without having to truly compete with the others for that business.

Maybe a couple of the lawyer types can chime in and correct me if I am wrong.

Would you want to be selling into this type of actions?

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee

Peters Idea would never work in the first place. There would always be someone out there that is not in on the scheme that bids the price up and keeps the market high. People are naturally competitive, so there will always be competition for the best cards, even if there is a pact of board members. Plus, some people would not adhere to a pact and get the cards at the cost of breaking the pact. There is also the fact of pooling money....this would not work because people may keep putting money into this "fund" and never get anything out of it. They have put money in and now have less to spend on cards, so they can afford less for the cards they want. If everyone just keeps the money they put into this "fund", then they could eventually afford some nice cards. Of course, most people want hobby icon cards such as the 1915 CJ Jackson and Cobb Green Portrait, so this is a "effort" to tip the scales so they might luck out and get one. Most likely, if someone joins a pact, there are going to be others in the pact that joined it to get the same cards too that can afford more than others. The person more flushed with cash can and probably will end up paying more, and probably a price around market value anyways.

Regards,
Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty

I would still like Peter to ask an attorney if this would be an illegal activity. I would also like to know if it is illegal, would conspiring to set up a group to do so be illegal. Then I would be courious to find out it an attorney could get into trouble if they were in any way involved in this type of activity. I am not questioning if this would work out or not, I am questioning if this is an illegal activity and if any attorney on this board could speak to this.

I am sure that many people do this, but I am not sure that posting the rules on a public board is a smart thing to do. Maybe this type of this is all well and good and Peter should be the one to head this activity up.

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee

Marty, my response was not in response to your first post, it was just my opinions....sorry if you thought it was in response to your post. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the legality of this subject, I just thought i would throw in my 2 cents. I know small groups of people often pool resorces like this, but a large, public system like the one porposed would get too complicated and inundated with cinflict IMO. If I remember correctly, Peter is a lawyer, so ask him....

Regards,
Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Peter is an attorney. Peter-maybe you can check out Witkin or the CFR's or something and check it out. I'm not sure it is illegal, though. Isn't this what a lot of VC consortiums do? And isn't this what that website (not eTopps, but something like that) does- by selling "shares" of cards they identify and buy? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Peter is saying. Maybe it's just too late...

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I am not sure I understand the proposal either, but some general principles follow. Generally speaking, unless they possess too much economic power, buyers' cooperatives are lawful. Note, however, that the buyers otherwise would not have been bidding against each other for a specific item -- they simply would have made individual purchases of the same good bought collectively. On the other hand, buyers cannot price-fix or agree not to bid against each other. Imagine, for example, a group of highway contractors who otherwise would have submitted competing bids for various projects, who instead form a cooperative single entity to bid and then allocate jobs to members. That would be unlawful.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dylan

I agree, the whole thing sounds like price fixing to me. The board, while large, represents only a fraction of the collecting population. There would always be "outsiders" bidding on these items. Hypotheticaly speaking even if only board members were bidding, if a card hasnt reached its market value some board member would jump in and place a bid anyways. There's no way to police that.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Hey Guys,

Most of the laws regarding collusion concern federal contracts and such. I just threw the idea out there, I didn't think it would be taken so seriously.

But something similiar might work...hmmm.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: sean

All I want is for cards to go back to being cheap and not $2000 for a poor condition wagner caramel card.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Sean- Unfortunately, we can't go back. We can only go forward, and that probably means higher prices. Such is life.

[Archive]

Posted By: sean

not if I can help it! who who hahahahahah
speaking of going back, my time machine is JUST about ready. i just sent the cat back one minute but he returned a chihuahua. Just a bit mroe tweaking!

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Sean,

Here's my Wagner Standard Caramel E93 that I'd guess would go for quite a bit under $2,000. When I decide to sell you get the right of first refusal. Don't need a time machine. I just hope your cat doesn't now look like this card.

Paul S

p.s. contrary to popular belief not all my cards are shot through and through...just the caramels. I got nothing personal against them.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Paul,

Don't you sometimes just sit back and wonder how somebody put a bullet hole through a card...actually I'm not sure whether it's a bullet hole. It's kind of amazing the type of damages you'll find on caramel cards. Then you sit back and wonder how did the collector manage to damage the card this badly...


Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: joe brennan

Paul,

Don't you sometimes just sit back and wonder how somebody put a bullet hole through a card...actually I'm not sure whether it's a bullet hole. It's kind of amazing the type of damages you'll find on caramel cards. Then you sit back and wonder how did the collector manage to damage the card this badly...


Peter

He managed that damage cause he was a good shot?

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

Granted the collector was probably a good shot...but the card was extremely worn before it was shot. So what happened, the guy was carrying the card in his wallet for a long period of time and then one day Wagner committed a serious error at shortstop and then the collector decided he would use the Wagner for target practice... I don't know the real story...and that's what makes collecting "well-loved" cards so interesting.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: sean

even with the bullet hole, I feel its gonna cost me a lot just looking at it. However, I am going to go back in time and stop gunpowder from being invented simply so you can have a not shot through card (and to save John Lennon).

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Peter,

For all these years I've assumed that either they were nailed to a board as a sample, or that they were "spindled" -- that someone stored them on a spindle (kids, don't try that at home!) Now, bullet holes is the current theory. I can accept it, in fact it is sort of romantic, that it's powder burns around those holes and not spindle rust. However, I do go back and forth about whether I am unlucky to have a Wagner with a hole and creases, or I am actually lucky to have a Wagner at all. What ya think?

Paul

P.S. Since spindles are not really much used these days I thought I would upload an image for those who may wonder what a spindled Wagner might look like.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Paul S.

Your definitely lucky to have a Wagner at all. Look at the bright side you can have lots of fun speculating on all the different ways the damage could have been made.

However, I warn you there's a downside also. The downside is you start thinking about upgrading the card.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

I'm all for it. hardly anyone wants what I'm after anyway.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Peter,
I agree with the first part of your response -- I'll never take a Wagner in the hand for granted. However, I'm only in half-agreement with the upgrade. In actuality hanging around this place is beginning to rekindle the collecting bug in me...something I thought would never happen. The question I ask myself, foolishly, is would I undertake
completing the E-90-1 since I've got a 45-card headstart and quite a few higher-priced cards (albeit in lower priced condition), or keep the Wagner and go for the rest of the E-93s. Even though card quality would not be an issue for me, lol, I don't know how I'd ever get the E-90 Jackson, in any condition. I don't think I've ever even seen one. I'll have to surf the net and take a look, foolishly. Don't some people consider a T206 "complete" w/o the Wagner? Not sure.

Mike,
Not sure what your reference is, since I'm a newbie. You collect E-93s?

Paul S

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Paul S.,

Normally the T-206 is considered complete without the big 4 (which includes the Wagner). Your situation is interesting and there are different approachs to collecting at this point. My tendency is to try and obtain the most expensive cards in any new set first. Ted Z. approachs it differently, he likes to purchase bulk common lots at auctions.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Both approaches have their merits. In my case, to undertake this, I would want a shot at scoring the Jackson first. I would have to know early on that I'd get a chance at a low grade Jax (I don't even need a bullet hole in it) That is to say, that I could be in on the competition, be considered. Setting aside dollar amount for the moment -- and I have no idea what that is except looking in my Beckett and SCD 2007 which probably doesn't mean anything should the time ever arrive -- am I safe in assuming that this is a card that might once in a while spring up at an auction house, or does it only see the light of day when dealt between fellow traders?
If the situation does arise my strategy is this: I will drag bunt that pitch and run like hell to beat it up the line for a hit (I'm a lefty so there's a decent chance.) If safe, then on my way toward stealing 2nd I could pick up almost all the remainders I need. Once there, I'll be determined enough to beat the throw to 3rd from right field to snag both Wagners. Except then I'll be looking toward home plate and the Mike Mitchell (Cinn) card is catching and I wonder if I'll have anything left. I'll have to make a mad dash toward home with my eyes closed, a suicide squeeze. If my wallet is still in my back pocket after I cross the plate I'll consider myself safe.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Paul S.,

That's a great idea for a thread, there are many collectors of the E90-1 and Joe Jackson in this forum. Just revise the above a bit and post it, I'm sure you'll get some interesting replies.

Peter