Matty / Johnson / Grove - who's the best pitcher ever?

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Posted By: Rob

Those seem to be the 3 top names mentioned when it comes to "best pitcher". Who would you pick?

I have to admit though ... if I could see just one pitcher pitch, I think it'd be Satchel Paige. Started reading (thats rare for me!) his auto-biography and he was either darn cocky or darn good. probably both!

Rob

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Posted By: Anonymous

Clemens and Seaver are in the conversation. I don't think Matty is though.

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Posted By: Steve f

I have a little thing for Matty. Can't forget Bostons' Cy Young and Smokey Joe.

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Posted By: Rob L

The Big Train, without a doubt.

Rob L

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Posted By: Dave S

Tough to choose a "best" without ever seeing any and just basing on statistics and what we've read...
Easy to choose the 1 I'd most like to have seen...Mordecai Brown...
What did you expect from a Cub-guy??

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Posted By: Dan

I have to say "The Big Train" or Cy Young, however, have always loved the Matty story and career, I just hate the tragedy in the end for Matty as he suffered a terrible end, but served his country proud.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I wish there were videos of Satchel Paige in action, if only half of the legend was true, he would be the top pitcher for me.

Peter

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Posted By: david poses

satchell paige.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I'd take Johnson first(maybe the second greatest all time player ever), and then Grover Alexander, I cant believe how few people bring up his name when we discuss all time lists! almost 400 wins and a 2.56 ERA over 20 years. I dont want to take another old timer for third so i could go with Koufax(even though only 12 years active, wow was he dominant!) or Clemens.

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Posted By: JohnKalafarski

Best pitcher I've ever seen: a healthy Pedro. Best three I've read about: Walter, Lefty, Matty. Koufax was no bum either (actually he was!).

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Posted By: Anonymous

Pedro's best years hold up with anyone ever. So yeah Pedro deserves consideration.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Johnson. Someone once calculated that if he had pitched for the Giants instead of the Senators, he would have won 50 more games or maybe it was even more than that -- and that Matty would have won "only" 260 had he pitched for the Senators.

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Posted By: jay behrens

1. Johnson
2. Grove
3. Clemens

after that, it's something of a toss up

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

416 wins with a team that was so awful all those years? Walter Johnson.

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Posted By: Justin

I think Clemens and Johnson are the only ones to be completely dominant for a 20 year span. Young wasn't really that great his final 5 years or so, Nolan Ryan's winning percentage is too low to say he was as dominant as Clemens or Johnson.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ryan doesn't even register as an all-time great. He was a freak show. If had to to pick one pitcher to watch, it would be Ryan, because he is the only pitcher that when he stepped on the mound, you knew there was a chance that he might throw a no-hitter. You can't say that about anyone else.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Justin

Sandy Koufax had 4 No-No's in four years. So he is definitely in that class.

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Posted By: Ken W.

The Big Train! He didn't care how the stupid ball was wound!

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Posted By: John H.

The Big Train has to be at the top of the list. His record with perenially bad Washington teams (other than 1924 & 25, of course) is astounding.

A little known fact: Pedro had the lowest one season WHIP in MLB history in 2000. He was special! I was lucky enough to see him square off with David Cone at Fenway in 1999, which was another superb season for him. The old yard was absolutely electric that night.

John

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Posted By: Richard L.

I pick Walter Johnson

certainly 2 of the alltime best, but:

the big train put up great stats on a less than average

matty put up great stats on an above average team

career ERA
matty 2.13
johnson 2.17

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Posted By: peter chao

Here's an underdog pick for the greatest of all-time, Greg Maddux, the Mad Dog himself. Still going strong at 41, if he can only pitch another 3-4 years at a high level, we would have to seriously consider him for the title of the best of all-time.

Peter

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Posted By: Dylan

Walter Johnson
GROVER ALEXANDER
Roger Clemens (compare his numbers to his collegues and the longetivity factor)

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Posted By: Brett

I heard that Clemens was on steroids.

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Posted By: peter chao

Brett,

That's what Jose Canseco suspects because they discussed different types of steroids. It's in his book JUICED. It's not credible evidence.

Peter

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Posted By: jay behrens

Not credible? So far, just about all of his claims have proven to be true. Clemens shows all the same classic signs of use as Bonds, yet people continue to want to deny that there is no way Clemens took anything. It's funny how Bonds gains weight and it's due to age and slowing metabolism, yet with Bonds, it's steroids/HGH. They are both users in my book, along with all other MLBers

Ja

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jay,

Okay, I'll say it differently, what Canseco says about Clemens is not credible to me because when it comes to people's reputations I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt.

Canseco is credible with regard to McGwire because of McGwire's subsequent testimony before Congress.

Peter

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Posted By: Anonymous

Mathewson for sure. 1905 world series performance speaks volumes!!!

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Posted By: Bob

The old red head saw games as a youngster and also broadcasted baseball games for the Reds and Brooklyn Dodgers, totalling almost 70 years. He saw them all except for the very earliest of pitchers. When asked who was the best he said, and remember this pitcher never played for his teams, "If I had one pitcher to pitch one game and my life depended on the outcome, I would choose Carl Hubbell."

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Posted By: Rhys

Walter Johnson and the voting should not even be close. His ERA is inflated because he would serve up meat pitches late in meaningless games to his pals, and he would have won an easy extra 75-100 games had he played for a team like the Giants. It is not even close.

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Posted By: barry arnold

the one with the angelic T206 portrait; i can't remember his name.

all the best,

barry

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

#1 has to be Sidd Finch, doesn't it???

If we exclude the curious case of old Siddy, then #1 is Walter Johnson, without a doubt.

I might put Clemens at #2. Probably Grove next, although I have no problem with Paige being up there. Matty, too.

I'd love to have a better feel for Rube Foster as a pitcher because I really have no idea if he should be considered or not. Tough to evaluate his career, but he might be up there.

This whole thread lost some credibility when Greg Maddux got thrown into the mix. He's certainly one of the greats, but he shouldn't enter into the equation for determining the #1 greatest pitcher of all-time, in my opinion. Of course, I also find it difficult to understand how it's possible to put Walter Johnson any lower than #1. Better to hear votes for Maddux than Nolan Ryan, however.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Just another Irishman...?

* The Only Pitcher "EVER" to "WIN" 2 Complete Games in 1 Day, "Twice"!
* Lowest Lifetime ERA (1.816) "EVER"

Pretty Cool for someone Hardly "EVER" mentioned in this type of conversation

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Ed

At his best, for a short period:

Dwight Gooden

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Posted By: peter chao

Ryan,

I'm talking about Greg Maddux with an additional 3-4 years of 15 wins, would he be a possible no. 1 at that time.

Peter

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Posted By: Justin

I don't Maddux is better than Clemens and they are almost exact contemporaries. It's not about total wins it's about dominance. Maddux has been above average for the last 3 years or so, but Clemens has been incredible.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The answer is Walter Johnson.

If you read what is said by players who batted against the pitchers from Cy Young to Lefty Grove (with Matty, Walsh, Wood, and others thrown in), then it is obvious that Walter was the best of the bunch.

I was always a big fan of Bob Gibson. His year with a 1.12 ERA was a powerful year. The Thomas book on Johnson explains how Walter's 1.14 year would have been lower, had Walter not pitched in a farce game and given up runs for the fun of it. As much as I like Gibson, he does not compare to Walter over a career. And neither does Koufax, Seaver, nor Clemens, great pitchers all; nor Maddux, a really good pitcher. Nor Gooden, a dominant pitcher until drugs, money, and character defeated him. To mention those guys with Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove, or Cy Young in inconceivable.


Which major league pitcher has the most career wins without having ever won the Cy Young award?? An easy question. Answer below.










































Cy Young.

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Posted By: Andrew

1. Johnson
2. Clemens
3. Grove

Johnson is the clear #1 in my opinion.

Peter, I do not think Maddux cracks the top 5 even in your scenario of him having 3-4 more productive years. I would still have Matty, Young and Alexander ahead of him. Somewhere around #7 feels right for Maddux. Paige also should be in the top ten somewhere.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Given the fact that Cy Young could never win the award, it's a rather silly answer. How about the real answer, the pitcher who could have won the ward, but didn't with the most wins.

































Nolan Ryan

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Brett

I agree with Jay about the steroid users. I read in the newspaper a fee months back that over 150 major leaguers tested positive for steroids rather last year, or the year before. If you look at all of the major home run hitters, all of their HR totals are ridiculously high between 1997 to about 2003. Then mysterisouly the total goes ways down the next year two. I'm not sure what pitchers used them, but alot of hitters have used them and are still using them. The results of the players tests should be made public because these players are ruining baseball. Every major record will be broken because this is getting out of hand.

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Posted By: Fred C

It's tough to pick the best because of the different eras. Why not pick the best for the following:

19th Century: pre and post 1893 (John, yes, you may include 1870's - 1880's)

Late 1890s until early 1910's

1910's to 1920's

1920's to 1940's

1940's to 1960's

1960's to 1970s

Overall modern from 1980s on

I wouldn't want to try and pick a top pitcher from each of those different eras, let alone a top pitcher of all time...

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

I’m just doing the “major leagues” otherwise I would definitely add Satchel Paige and Smokey Joe Williams to at least one of these groups.

19th century (before 1893)
1.Clarkson
2.Radbourn
3.Keefe
4. Pud Galvin (ranked mostly for fortitude, stamina and longevity)
Hon Mention for shorter careers/less than 300 wins, lesser competition etc.: AG Spalding, Caruthers, Tommy Bond

1893-1901
1.Nichols
2.Young
3.Russie

1901-1910
1.Mathewson
2.Brown
3.Young
4.McGinitty
5.Walsh

1910-20
1.Johnson
2.Alexander (no one else is even close to these 2)
Hon mention for short-term excellence: Wood

1920-40
1.Grove (way way ahead)
2.Hubbell
3.Vance

Hon Mention: short-term excellence: Dean
1940-60
1-2Feller -Spahn
3.Roberts
4.Whitey Ford
Hon Mention short term excellence : Hal Newhouser

1960-70
1.Koufax
2.Marichal
3.Gibson
Hon Mention short term excellence Denny McLean

1970-85
1.Seaver
2.Carlton
3.Palmer
4.Jenkins
5.Gossage
6.G. Perry-N. Ryan-Phil Niekro
Hon Ment short term excellence: Ron Guidry

1985-present
1.Clemens
2.Maddux
3.Pedro Martinez
4.Randy Johnson
5.Tom Glavine-Mariano Rivera

Hon Mention short term excellence: Doc Gooden, Orel Heshiser

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Posted By: jay behrens

Shouldn't Koufax fall under the short term greatness catagory? He was a .500 or less pitcher for half his career. That is not the hallmark of a great pitcher. If there were a definition of supernova career in the dictionary, Koufax's picture would be next to it.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

That's fair too.
His career in the 50's was pretty lame but all of his good and great seasons were in the 60's. He was an all-star from 1961-66 and led the NL in ERA from 1962-66, so I thought he was the decades' best Pitcher.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "short-term" too.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Even if you are talking about the best pitcher of a decade, I'd want more than 5 years of greatness from that pitcher. Koufax has peak value that is silly, but his extended value is not all that great.

I was looking at the 60s and outside of Gibson and Marichal, there is no pitcher that was great for more than 5 years. Everyone else was great for either the first half or last half of the decade. I'd prolly go with McDowell third just because he was the best pitcher in AL during the 60s.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: CN

I have been watching baseball for over 40 years and I would have to say Tom Seaver based on the fact that his team never hit good and his leadership qualities. His stats compare to the best but his intangibles such as being under the pressure of being THE FRANCHISE in the biggest media market and succeeding must be taken into account.CN

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Posted By: Fred C

Brian,

After looking at all the pitchers you mentioned I'm sure I couldn't pick only ONE.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Ultimately it comes down to what defines a great pitcher. Is it longevity or peak that should be valued most.

I lean more towards longevity as the hallmark, because the game is littered with players who had brief moments of brilliance. The only question is how much is enough? Koufax is just borderline, but the fact that his best was so good and allows him to be in this conversation says a lot about what he was able to accomplish.

Also if you look at his road stats for 1959-61 they are very good, but he was hurt by playing in LA Coliseum, and even his years at Ebbetts Field hurt his value during his early career.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Earlier in this post, someone mentioned ERAs. On that basis, you would have to include Addie Joss who had a lifetime ERA of 1.88. Also, according to the Baseball Hall of Fame website, 45 of his 160 victories were shutouts.

Just adding another name to the discussion.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Interesting book: "Leveling The Field" by G. Scott Thomas. This study goes to exhaustive measures to evaluate players across all eras. They measured comparative performance, league bias, stadium bias etc. Very thorough. Their pick for best pitcher ever: Lefty Grove.

Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

Blyleven usually does very well (top 20 all-time) in those types of studies becuase he spent much of his career in hitter friendly stadiums, often with so-so teams. He never had the benefit of playing for a great team. He is a definately HOFer, because his numbers are not obvious, he gets overlooked.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.