3 preWar players you would add to HOF

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

gavvy Cravath,hal Chase, and dummy hoy.

Also scans of any cards of the above would be appreciated.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ross Barnes, Harry Stovey, Jim Creighton (honorary award since he did not play ten years).

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Posted By: Pete Z.

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Posted By: Justin

Sherry Magee, Lefty O'Doul, Bobby Mathews

Honorable mention to Harry Stovey and Larry Doyle.

Also I don't get the love for Hal Chase. He was an interesting and compelling character in baseball's past, but he killed every team he was on and threw multiple games while encouraging others to do the same.

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Posted By: Chad

1. Home Run Johnson
2. Dick Redding
3. Ross Barnes

A buch of other guys like Cupid Childs and Lip Pike and George Van Haltren merit consideration, too.)

--Chad

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

George Van Haltren
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane (just edging out Bill Dahlen and Bobby Mathews)

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Posted By: Glen V

Joe Jackson
Lefty O'Doul
Buck O'Neil

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Posted By: peter chao

1. Bobby Mathews
2. Bob Caruthers
3. Ken Williams

Peter

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Posted By: Chad

Forgot about him. Great, great player. He's so good I keep forgetting he's not in the Hall. And speaking of great shorstops, I forgot Dobie Moore, too.

--Chad

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Posted By: Steve M.

Cravath, Reulbach and Deacon McGuire

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Posted By: Matt Goebel

Dick Lundy
Smoky Joe Wood
Pete Browning

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Posted By: Chris Counts

It's interesting to note that most of the players listed above are pre-World War I players and not guys that played between the wars. This makes sense when you consider that:

1) The overwhelming majority of collectors on this board favor pre-World War I cards;

2) There are more questionable HOFers in the group that played between the wars than players from all the other eras combined, a fact that can be at least partly attributed to Frankie Frisch running the veterans' committee ...

With that being said, I would add Joe Jackson, Lefty O'Doul and Smokey Joe Wood to the HOF ...

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Posted By: dan mckee

Riggs Stevenson, Joe Wood, Joe Jackson.

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Posted By: Chad

We don't call you Ghost for nothing!

--Chad

(Of course, I didn't list Oms, dang it. So many guys to put in, so few people listening.)

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Bill Dahlen, Joe Jackson, O'Doul

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Caruthers
Van Haltren
Mathews

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Posted By: Darren

Harry Davis
Deacon Phillipe
Sherwood Magee

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Definitely should be in:

George Van Haltren

1639 R; 2532 H; 1014 RBI; .316 BA; .385 OBP; 583 SB; also 40 W as a pitcher

Maybe should be in:

Tip O'Neill, Jim McCormick, Bob Caruthers, Tony Mullane

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Posted By: themodo@hotmail.com

Jack Chapman or Jim Creighton to represent the pre-professionals

Tony Mullane

Harry Stovey

Honorable Mention to Frank Bancroft, one of the best ambassador/manager the game has ever known in many ways. Did much more for the popularization of baseball outside America than Lefty O'doul, but I do think Lefty belongs in the Hall as well.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

1. Joe Jackson
2. Joe Wood
3. Lefty O'Doul

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Posted By: Dylan

Some nineteenth century players the committee should seriously consider-Bill Dahlen, Jack Glasscock, Lave Cross, Charlie Bennett, Pete Browning, Paul Hines(apparently they dont pay much attention to the best players during the 1870's) George Van Haltren who had .316 batting avg. 2536 hits, 583 stolen bases, thats not HOF material? Bobby Mathews, Caruthers, Tony Mullane, 285 wins, and reportedly quite good. How can you go with Dummy Hoy when you still have guys like the ones named above still not in the Hall?? (If i made a mistake listing someone who is in the hall as managers, its cause i only checked players list)

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Posted By: Glyn

"How can you go with Dummy Hoy when you still have guys like the ones named above still not in the Hall?? "

He simply has a great story and i like a great story. I somehow forgot Joe Jackson whomI would obviously put in.

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

Deacon Phillippe
Bobby Mathews
Tony Mullane

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ed Reulbach

George Van Haltren

Pete Browning



Easy choices.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Cecil Travis, Cecil Travis, and Cecil Travis

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Harry Stovey (I can't understand why he's not already in)

Jack Glasscock

Pete Browning

Honorable mentions:

Dickey Pearce
Duncan Curry

I'd also like to see some more guys from the pre-1880 days get in.

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Posted By: Jason Carota

Smokey Joe Wood
Deacon Phillippe
Sherry Magee

edit: sp

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

Paul Hines

Frank Grant

Bobby Mathews

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Posted By: Steve M.

Ron Santo. (Well you didn't specify which "war")

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Posted By: Justin

I think Browning isn't in for two reasons: Louisville hasn't had a team in more than a century, so there was no groundswell of support from fans who remembered, only the Louisville Slugger name. And he has an .880 career fielding %, including one season of .791. He was pretty one dimensional.

Statistically, Van Haltren is probably the best eligible player not in the Hall. I didn't realize he was that good.

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Posted By: Kenny

Joe Jackson
Bill Dahlen
Charles "Babe" Adams

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Posted By: Dave Williams

2 guys who WW2 may have cost the HOF

1 - Cecil Travis

2 - Johnny Pesky

and.....

Marty Marion

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Posted By: Mark L

Heine Groh
Larry Doyle
Deacon Phillippe

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Posted By: Paul

Bob Caruthers
George Van Haltren
Deacon Phillippe

If I could name four: Carl Mays.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The name of the thread could have been "3 preWar players you would add to HOF" AND WHY they should be enshrined!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I join in with Paul on Carl Mays... he's waiting in line at number 4.

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Posted By: Jerry

alot of people list Deacon Phillipe but Sam Leever had more wins, better win% & Lower Era.
Leever
194-100
660 Win%
2.47 Era

Phillipe
189-106
634 Win%
3.09 Era



Stovey & Van Haltren for the other 2

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Posted By: Misunderestimated

Chronologically:
Deacon White
Bill Dahlen
Joe Jackson

My other favorites (in no special order)
Paul Hines
Bobby Caruthers (might have to finesse the 10 yr. rule)
Harry Stovey
Dick Redding
George Gore
Heinie Groh
Cupid Childs

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Posted By: Paul

Caruthers does satsify the 10 year rule. His published stats usually only list 9 years because they list only his pitching stats. But he played 14 more games as an outfielder in his 10th and final season. Does anyone know why he retired at age 29?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Joe Jackson
Geo.Mullin 6 time 20 game winner and 228 wins
SMoky Joe

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Joss made it through the 10 year clause (ok, he died before his 10th season).

Caruthers was in MLB for 10 years. In 1893, he didn't pitch but he did play so he does pass the 10 year test. He's the only pitcher to have over 210 wins and less than 100 losses. He's one of two pitchers to have over 200 wins with less than 100 losses. Back in the 1880s it wasn't uncommon for a pitcher to lose 20 or 30 games in a season. He never lost more than 15 games in any one season. The biggest knock on Caruthers is that he pitched 6 of 9 seasons in the AA. The last three seasons he pitched in the NL he was 43-35. If you took away his last season pitching his NL record would have been 41-25 (a .621 Win %).


The biggest knock on Van Haltren is that in 17 seasons he played he only led the league twice in a true offensive categorey (3Bs in 1896 and SBs in 1900). To me his is an odd situeation. Most really deserving "pioneers" of the game that are left out of the HOF played many seasons in the AA. He only played one season in the AA. He put up some good lifetime numbers: 11x he scored 100 runs in a season, his lifetime BA of .316 isn't so shabby.

Paul Hines was another really consistent "pioneer" of the game. He played a lot of his career in the 1870s (the infancy of organized pro ball) where he won two batting titles and was the first Major League triple crown winner (ok, 4 HRs and 50 RBIs wasn't a lot, but at the time those were good numbers).


The HOF, as an establishment, should look at the roots of this game and pay homage to those that were true pioneers of the game. They've pretty much enshrined those that put up the big numbers but there are others from that era (pioneers, 19th century players) that are also deserving to be included in the HOF. They've rightfully opened the doors to the Negro Leaguers now they need to take a really close look at the games history and rethink the idea behind the HOF. Not only should it be an institution that honors the game's greats but it should also recognize the roots of the game and the players that helped make the sport what it is today.

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Posted By: Cobby3

Ted Breitenstein

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Posted By: howard

Joe Gordon....better than his contemporary Bobby Doerr and lost two prime years to WW2. A key member of multiple Yankee championship teams as well as the '48 champion Indians.

Cecil Travis.....Possible 3,000 hit career derailed by WW2 (frostbite during Battle of the Bulge).

Pete Browning...A dominant hitter

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

DICK McBRIDE !!


As Player/Manager for the Philadelphia team in the 19th century...

he posted a .656 winning percentage!!!


This give him TWO ways to enter the HOF:


His winning percentage as a PITCHER is 23rd best of all time! (Higher than 75% of the pitchers already in the HOF)


His winning percentage as a MANAGER is higher than EVERY manager who has ever been inducted!!!

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Posted By: Jason Carota

You are correct about Leever, his numbers in those catagories are better than Phillippe's. I placed Phillippe on my list, however, because of his very low walk total (363 vs Leever's 587.) If I were to make a top ten list, Leever would definitely be on it.

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Posted By: Mark L

I struggled between Phillippe and Leever but gave the nod to the Deacon because of the role he played on the Pirates' 3 straight pennants at the start of the modern era. He pitched against the other teams' aces and won 20+ games 5 straight years. But there is an argument for both.

I also want to plug Larry Doyle again. Look, he had THREE t206's. What more proof do you gys want?

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Posted By: Cobby33

Dick Pole, for having the coolest name in baseball.

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Posted By: J Levine

Hmmm...

Good to see Sherry Magee getting some love. His numbers were very good and comparable to some other HOF center fielders (namely Ashburn).

I would have to vote for O'Doul as well...great numbers.

I would also like to agree with Pesky and Marion and add one other to the list, Dom Dimaggio....the guy could play and his numbers were overshadowed by his brother.

Joshua

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Posted By: peter chao

Joshua,

Dom Dimaggio was as good if not better than Joe in centerfield. However, his bat did not have sufficient punch to warrant serious consideration.

Peter

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Peter,

Dom DiMaggio compares very favorably to Richie Ashburn, especially when you consider DiMaggio lost three prime years serving in World War Two. DiMaggio hit .298 with a .383 on base average, while Ashburn hit .308 with a .396 on base average. As good a defender as Ashburn was, DiMaggio was considered a phenomenal centerfielder ...