Help with 2 19th century photographs

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Posted By: Keith

Hello,

I wanted to pick the brains of the experts on this forum regarding a couple of photographs I recently picked up.

The first photo is a CDV of 2 Doane College of Crete Nebraska athletes. It is standard size for a CDV. I have 2 questions regarding it, 1. Do you think the players are football or baseball players - my thoughts are football. and 2. What time period do you think this dates to? I was thinking mid to late 1880s..?



The second photo is a photo on board of a baseball team from McGrannville NY. Some of the players have a unique piece of fabric on the top of their chest reading McGrannville, and 1 with the word Captain as well. One of the players has a bib style jersey. I am concerned about whether this photograph is original. It has a little too much shine/gloss compared to the other late 19th century photographs that I have. I am going to use a miscroscope tomorrow to compare it to other true originals I have. I have read (Thanks cycleback) that 19th century albumen photographs should have noticeable fibers evident under 50x microscopy. We shall see tomorrow. I am going to also have a local photography expert take a look tomorrow.

My questions for the group are; 1. What time period do you think the players/team dates to? and 2. From the scan shown here, any insight as to whether it could be a repro?

Here is a link to a larger size scan




and closeups of some of the players.



Thanks alot guys,
KJ

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The first photo is definitely football players. Doane College is my wife's alma mater. Great photo.

The second photo looks to be from the late 1880s to 1890s. Looks legit to me.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm with Dan on this one. The CdV doesn't look like baseball, so football is a good guess. It also seems pretty late for a CdV, perhaps 1875-80.

The second photo looks fine, it's not unusual for them to look glossy, as albumen photographs are like that. You never want to authenticate off a scan but it does appear to be genuine.

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Posted By: Anonymous

dan knows much more about photographs than i do but i thought the bib style of jersey would date it to 1870's-1880's.

but then i also thought the first photograph was baseball players so take that with a grain of salt

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Posted By: Steve f

Keith,

1. I agree with the others, foot ball; high-top shoes

2. Hard to tell if it's a laser print. Could you take a side photo to catch the glare of the ink?
I'm wondering if Bibby is wearing a strike zone for when the ump is on the mound (cuz he ain't the Capt).

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Posted By: ramram

Yes, the first photo is football. The giveaway is the particular type of lace-up jersey that they have on. The CDV size is a little odd though. Must be a late carryover since the image depicts 1880's footballers and most CDV's were gone by then.

I believe the second image is more like the 1890's. The image's tone appears more like that period. The image does look a little too glossy, which would concern me if it were a high-dollar image, but nobody would go through the trouble of faking a town team. I think the bib-front jersey is just a holdover from an earlier time.

Rob M.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Bib uniforms were common in the 1870s and uncommon in the 1890s. When I first saw the bib uniform, 1870s came to mind. However, the big padded glove establishes the team as later. There were gloves in the 1870s, but they were unpadded and fingerless, almost like bicycle racer's gloves.

The baseball photo does look somewhat funny. In particular the white and black border parts are unusual. But unusual doesn't automatically mean reprint and it's hard to tell anything for certain from a head on scan.

I know much less about football uniforms than baseball, but know that some of the 1800s football jerseys were tightly string tied up the front (as in the picture). It was desirable to have as tight a jersey as possible to make it hard to be grabbed.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Bib jerseys were uncommon, but not unheard of in the 1890s.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'll bet that's a female bloomers baseball player. That's a boudoir background, and it would
seem highly unlikely in Victorian days that they would photograph a man standing in a woman's
boudoir.

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Posted By: Keith

thanks alot for all of the valued opinions. thats what makes this forum so great.

Man, that is one manly female ball player if its true.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

It's a man....David Tipton is written on the back. This is circa 1890-95 and quite possible this is a teammate of Zane Grey who also played for the Delphos Reds during that time period.

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Posted By: Joe D.

but is he giving us the finger in that picture?

maybe he doesn't appreciate the background the photographer chose.

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Posted By: Jason L

if you were a guy that looked like a woman that looked like a guy, made to wear an old bib, -and you were being made to stand in front of a boudoir background that challenged your womanly manhood even moreso?

an intriguing and confusing image, to say the least...but the person is wearing a glove, so I am going to say baseball player, all the way.

glad I could help!

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Posted By: Anonymous

Football



Adam B

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Interesting....two different cabinets of the same Doane College Football player held by two different people on this forum.

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Posted By: Keith

Wow, thats a coincidence, huh. Is yours a CDV or a Cabinet photo? Interesting that yours has a more elaborate photographers mark being that it is the same photographer.

Any writing on yours to identify the player or date it?

Thanks for sharing it.

Would you be willing to part with it Adam via a trade or something?

KJ

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Posted By: Anonymous

Not too much of a coincidence as we got them from the same seller a couple of months apart. I think I am going to hang on to mine - I do not believe there was any identification on it.

Adam B

Mines a cabinet

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Posted By: Richard

Keith - fantastic items, once again! I think you need to start a thread - show me your favorite team cabinets/cdv's/imperials.

ps - the Carlisle yearbook came today!

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Posted By: Keith

Thanks for sharing it Adam. I guess I missed that one when it was listed.

Thanks Richard. You're building a nice Carlisle collection, aren't you?
Did you find Bender in there? Regardless, it was beautiful piece at a great price.

Keith

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Posted By: Keith

Also, wanted to add that I studied the baseball cabinet photo with magnification and the photo paper looks very similar to a 1880s Pach Bros photo I have. Not saying that it is 1880s rather than 1890s or anything, just that it appears 19th century.