E136 Zeenut 1912 print variation- no pallete

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Posted By: leon

Hey folks,
Recently I picked up a small group of 1911 and 1912 Zeenuts and while going through them I noticed one of them had no pallete on back. I know this is very esoteric but has anyone else seen or have one like this? I have probably handled 100 or so 1912's and don't ever recall this. The back on the far right is for comparison....(notice the pencil writing that has not been erased )

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't have the answer to your question, but don't you always find that pallette on the Home Run Kisses...and if I see those cards on the market without the pencil writing I am turning you in.

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Posted By: leon

OK...so we have formed the "pencil erasure police" now? I thought that's what ya'lls NY dinner was for? Also, you might check your spelling ....

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Sometimes you'll find them with a redemption stamp on them also. Personally, I like the redemption stamp followed by the pallette followed by the blank back. As far as distribution goes I've seen more blank backs than the others.

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Posted By: leon

Love those redemptions...I think I have one as a type too. Have you ever seen any other 1912's without the pallete though?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- the dictionary lists "pallet" and "pallette" but the little doohickey on the back of the card is more accurately a "pallet" so guess what- we BOTH spelled it wrong! Just for that, you may erase the pencil marks one time only at no penalty

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I recall seeing more without the "palette" (third times a charm to get it correct). I could be mixing this up with the 1911 Zees. I can't recall seeing any of the 1911 cards with a palette or redemption stamp. They may be out there but I haven't seen them. There's probably a few hard core Zee collectors that could answer this better.

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Posted By: Mark Macrae

There are two different sized Bardell Sepia palettes known on the 1912, plus the premium offer back, and the blank backs.... Not sure which original collection those hieroglyphics where obtained from, but Bill Haber's collection of 1912 Zeenuts had the most I've ever seen. And Barry, not to worry, as I recall they were written in midnight blue / black ink. Even Stevie Wonder could spot an erasure attempt....although I'm not sure if he is still working at PSA

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mark- I thought sightless people end up getting jobs as umpires, but grading is a good profession, too.

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Posted By: Bob

Mark- I've noticed the same hieroglyphics on the top back of some 1911 Zeenuts also, including a few in my collection. Thanks for mentioning where they might have come from. I am not familiar with Bill Haber, is he a modern collector or someone who bought them a long time ago and added the codes?
Happy holidays,
tbob

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Bob & Mark,

I also have his writting on maybe 100 Zeenuts and Home Run Kisses, Would like to know background. As I recall they seem to be all pre 1920 cards. I will check that tonight.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- Bill Haber was one of the early vintage card collectors who passed away about 15 years ago. When his collection was sold it included a complete T210 set and a complete E107 set (before the Dahlen and McGuire variations were known). Both sets went to the same collector, and I believe the E107 went for about 40K. That would buy you half a Wagner today. He had other exotic stuff, but I don't remember what. I think it was Sports Collectors Store that conducted the auction in SCD.

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Posted By: Mark Macrae

Bob....As Barry pointed out, Bill Haber was one of the hobby's super collectors, long before the term existed. In addition to collecting the cards, he avidly researched the obscure players, sometimes spending more time researching a player than the ENTIRE CAREER of the player in question. Although I never met him in person, the times we communicated were always pleasant & would always end with one of us (usually me) walking away with a handfull of trivia about some guy that few people cared about. He worked for Topps, at some point, researching and writing the player biographies on the backs of cards and amassed a huge collection over several decades. He died at a relatively young age and his collection was auctioned by Bill Mastro during the brief period that he had partnered with Don Steinbach in the mid-late 90's. His style of collecting, attitude and hobby integrity would be on par with John England, who you know...... Bill Mastro, Larry Fritsch, Lew Lipset or Rob LIfson would be more qualified than myself in citing Haber's numerous contributions to the hobby.......Peter, without seeing the specific marks, there are dozens of different "fingerprints" left behind on cards which were originally marketed here in Northern California. Many cards from those collections were brought into the hobby by close friends of mine, or myself over the years and many will have passed through my hands 10 or more times already. I always look at the marks on Zeenuts when they come in, just to see if I've owned them before. I've been tempted (but haven't executed the thought yet) to mark the cards I've owned on the back with invisible ink just to save me processing time when they come in....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mark- one other thing I remember about Bill Haber is that SCD would devote part of one page to obituaries, and nearly half of them were provided courtesy of Bill Haber. Since he wrote player biographies, he seemed to know everything about them, including when they died.

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Posted By: Steve M.

Here are the two different pallete sizes on the 1912 Zeenuts that Mark mentioned:



Of 32 in my collection I have 20 small pallete; 12 large pallete and no blank backs. I have one with the Collins-McCarthy imprint and two with the ink writting described above (I can't spell that big word that I think Barry used)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- according to Webster's, there is a "pallet", a "palette", and a "pallette." Amazingly complicated, and Leon did spell it right. A "pallette" is something on a suit of armor.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

I have is that I got to visit the Topps offices in Manhattan in 1995 while on vacation (It might have been 96 -- I'm getting forgetful) and Mr. Haber was out of the office that day -- and it turned out he would pass on a few months later. I was always a bit sad I never got to meet him.


Rich

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Posted By: Andy Cook

I have 81 1912 Zeenuts and I sorted them by backs tonight. I have many more small pallettes than large pallettes, three with the redemption ad and zero blank backs. All the redemption backs are on large pallette backs. Further, there seems to be differences among backs by team.

Los Angeles - 11 cards - 5 small, 2 redemption with large, 4 large (includes dupes of the two with redemption, both dupes have large backs)

Oakland - 12 different plus a couple dupes - ALL have small backs

Portland - 7 diff plus dupes - 5 small, 1 redemption with large, 1 large

Sacramento - 9 diff plus dupes - ALL have large backs

SF - 16 diff plus dupes - 2 large, 14 small

Vernon - 9 small, 4 large - two of the small and two of the large are dupes where I have a small and large of the same card - these are the only examples of dupes varying by size.

I'll be interested to see if these trends continue as I acquire more of these. It makes me think of different print runs, which may also indicate which cards are more scarce/plentiful.

Andy

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Posted By: leon

So my original summation that the blank backs are almost non existent seems true. Out of the over 200 seen by board members, other than Mark, no one has seen, or has, a blank back one with no pallete. (I took about 10 minutes before the original post to see if I was getting "pallete" correct ) Darn word cops.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

No Leon- you had it right the first time. One "l" is what a painter uses to hold his paints; two "l"s is something attached to a piece of armor. And what about the heavy wooden crate you find in a warehouse to stack boxes? That is "pallet", a third spelling. What a wild and crazy word And there is no "pallete" at all, you left out a "t". I prefer spelling "cat", it is much less confusing.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Lets see, there are large "cats", small "cats", backs with redemptions and the seemingly scarce no "cats" for the 1912 Zees. This leads me to a few questions:

1) How many large "cats" with redemptions?
2) How many small "cats" with redemptions?
3) Leon, what kind of power eraser did you use to get rid of the "cat" from the back of that card?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

sure are nice, but at present they just don't suit my palate.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Wow Todd- a fourth palate! I think we just discovered the best word in the English language.