If this were the stockmarket..............

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

All of these posts would have driven it to record lows.

I certainly hope all the collectors of high grade material, 8's and up, know what they are doing to themselves and their card "investments" by continuing the drudging of these high profile dealers and grading services. They are going to make it most difficult for that level of the high grade card market to sustain it's value. I could see the value of those 8's and 9's falling to prices not seen in the previous 5 years and making them very difficult to sell in any holder prior to this date. Theoretically many high end collectors from the registry's for example could see the value of their collection fall 50% or greater. But, I guess that would not bother them, as they appear to be the driving force behind all of this.

Good luck on your quest for more information. Just be careful, you may get what you wish for, and then you will be worse off then before all of this inquisition began.


Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

...... lets get the heads of Enron out of jail and back in charge.
If only no-one had ever screwed up their con, then all the shareholders could sleep well at night.

Absolutely ludicrous, what a laughable comment you've made.

Daniel Enright

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Lose money/change the hobby for the better--not a bad tradeoff.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

Hit the nail on the nose.

If there was a way to short high end cards, I'd do it right now.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

To me these posts have been nothing other than an acknowledgement that some significant portion of high grade collections may be suspect.

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

E. Daniel

I am not condoning any of the actions of others. I am trying to point out to the vigilante's that they may want to approach this in a positive manner and not a lynch mob mentality.

Jim,

You may be able to sustain the loss in your portfolio, others may not be able. Also I would like to point out in defense of the card hobby as a whole, that the number of altered cards(not pencil removal or wax removal) but trimmed, rebuilt, recolored, etc in holders is extremely small probably less than 1%. Is that too much? yes, But is it worth throwing the baby out with the bath water? Let the grading companies do their job to the best of their abilities and help them to find ways to circumvent all of the new tech alterations.


Adam,

you are correct, there are a large number of people reading this board that would be delighted to see the high end cards plummet.

Disclosure: I have both raw and high end graded cards in my collection.

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

Nothing is AT ALL laughable about what Scott wrote.

Jim also got it right. It's an exchange. I have been critical about Jim (not toward his goal, just taking up so much of the Forum for his quest) but what Jim has done is kind of like showing the whole Board what's actually in a hot dog. A lot of us wouldn't want to eat hot dogs anymore after seeing how they are made. Some would still, but most wouldn't.

If the prices fall over the next six months, this Forum and Jim's quest has played a vital roll in bringing down the prices. One person. One forum. Who would have thunk it?

I already talked to three big dollar buyers who have been reading along and lurking and they are rather disgusted by some of the things they have read.

As a person who prefers his card to be nude and doesn't go after "8's", I'm glad I never got into the hype of purchasing the number and high grade cards.

DJ

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Without pointing any fingers, I tend to agree with Scott. If there is a real, tangible problem, bring it out. But if you try too hard to find a problem where one may or may not exist, people are going to start believing it.

I'm really close to just liquidating everything. Although I collect primarily for the enjoyment of it, there's no sense dumping a bunch of money (on albeit low grade stuff) in something that everyone is speculating is a complete sham.

I think we've beat this thing enough, it's making it too tedious and I'm getting a headache too. The general tenor of the posts in the last month is getting absurd as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

and there goes my big advertising dollars ... I was gonna get rich too. I think the time I put in trying to keep the integrity of the board (extremely difficult the last few days) works out to about $4.00 per hour...and that's after the banners start getting paid for. Honestly, I am considering not doing this anymore as I don't have the time. I can make more being a greedy,money grubbing wh*** somewhere else....

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

As with stocks, when they decline in price is often a good time to buy--which is what I expect to be doing in the December auctions.

Glad I am not holding any of those mid-grade T206s now.

Whew!

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Give me a break.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

[Glad I am not holding any of those mid-grade T206s now.]

Actually, that's where the safe money is -- evenly rounded corners that anyone can tell weren't trimmed, slight wrinkles that everyone can see. It is one of the primary reasons I collect mid-grade cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Geez, I love my cards. The high-grade ones, the low-grade ones, the altered ones, the original ones, ALL of 'em.

I can't WAIT to buy some new ones on Friday at the show! Wrinkly cards, skinny cards, fat cards, smooth cards...I am SO glad that this is NOT the stock market! Because if it were, I'd have to have some other hobby!

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Disagree--mid grade T206s have been dragged along by the incredible strength in prices of psa 8s. If psa 8s go lower so will the mid-grades.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I think I see a wrinkle that had a spoon taken to it in the upper left corner.

1. This card raw. $250 approximately
2. This card graded $250 approximately
3. Seeing high grade collectors squirm - Priceless

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

BS. As I (and I believe Barry S.-if not- sorry) have pointed out, it's like comparing apples & oranges. Comparing PSA 8 T206's to PSA 4's and 5's is like comparing T206's to T214's.

Go enjoy your high-grade stuff and let us enjoy our low-grade stuff. Why the "my bike is shinier thank your bike" nonsense?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Well I am not squirming--I am a buyer.

Small price to pay to bring integrity and honesty back into the hobby.

The same people who missed the explosion in high-end vintage sportscard prices will miss the next one too.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Cobby,

Some are reveling in the fact that high end collectors could see the value of their cards come down.

My point is everything comes down and perhaps by equal percentages.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

It is like apples and oranges.

If I could graph it there would be a much higher spike in price for high grade stuff than mid-grade stuff. That is, the increase in price for high grade stuff has been exponentially higher. If that were to come crashing down, mid-grade stuff would come down somewhat, but not as steeply.

A lot of that has to do with the fact that there are other variables besides price of high grade stuff that influence the price of mid-grade stuff. For example, what I have said previously, that sharp corners on a PSA 8 T206 card look weird to me. Call me crazy, but it's all so suspicious.

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Thinking that "honesty and integrity" will be pervasive in any billion-$ business is naive. There will always be scams, so why not address them on a case-by-case basis instead of creating some kind of pandemic scare?????

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I was only having a little fun. I need it. Honestly, very few of us have the same monetary concerns over very high grade cards as we don't collect too many of them. (By the way the number is around 20%.....give or take....from reliable sources....)

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Cobby,

Because nothing would ever change.

Lets see what happens with SCP Auctions tonight?

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

I confided in someone a few days ago that this may actually be a ploy on someones part to manipulate the market.

Please read the posts above this and see if you can spot anyone that could possibly profit from this fall in prices, either financially or being able to gain more acquistions at a reduced price.


Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Anybody tired of all this yet?...I'm a little worn around the corners myself.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Yup Scott--you win--I give up.

I have a huge short bet on the card market.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I absolutely agree with Scott's insightful take on things. Jim couldn't possibly be motivated by genuine concern for the state of the hobby. Shame on you, Jim, for not revealing your true motives. You are as guilty as anyone else who has not made full disclosure.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Right again Peter and let me congratulate Scott again on his expert analysis--let my 24,000 PSA high grade cards go down in value so I can buy a few cheaper--brilliant!!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- SCP Auctions closes tomorrow night. Those T206 are from an original find- I'll go long and bet they go through the roof. Nothing this board says or does will stop them.

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

...I must confess. I have one card in my vintage collection graded above an SGC50. Clearly my plans are to plunder the rest of you.

daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: DR

it would be safe to assume numerous 'dealers' would end up in JAIL!

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...the notion of Jim taking a dive for personal gain is ludicrous.

While I disagree with Jim's plan, I have to agree that he should be commended for recommending something that would hurt him financially. That should be enough to protect his credibility here.

Those 24,000 PSA graded cards would look much better in an SGC holder. How many do you suppose would cross over?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Right you are!

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

If from all this there happened to be enough of a fallout with high end cards....say PSA 8 T206's went from $1200-2500 to $300-400.....what would that entail do with the low end stuff that hasn't been tampered with? My PSA 1's, 2's, and 3's, while they are "cheap" and not a hit economically to many on the board...they would be a hit to me if they went from $25-$60 to $5-$20.....if the high end stuff ever falls, the low stuff has to follow.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koteles

you are a millionheiress, doesnt mean that you can ruin it for others. Many rely on Auctions houses to buy other cards, pay bills ,buy their wife a new vehicle, etc...etc....

Just because you are bored with your 24,000 trimmed cards.....

It is obvious that you only care about your own "hissy" ways or you would have regard to others. Iam shocked at your level of maturity overall and "frankly" could care less about any future posts that you have. You will not win with me, so lets have at it!

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Ha Ha--good luck Dan--and I mean it---and I love the hobby.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Dave- if PSA-8's go to $300-400 I'll take them all- unless Jim gets to them first. The fallout won't be that bad. There are a few nervous people out there, a few disillusioned, and a few fed up...but I'll still take all T206 PSA-8's at $400 a pop.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

It's not a slight, but I figured you would...you'd have the means to. Your not, I won't say young...your, already financially settled. I'm 30...my money after family and bills equates to a few T206's 2's here and there...I love them, and don't ever plan on getting rid of them....but, in emergency situations, when money is needed, it is unsettling to think the cards I'm spending $30 for now, I won't get but $10 for later....

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

The market for psa 8 commons and minor leaguers(not southern league) has been

Pop 1s--$6,000-$6,500
Pop 2s --$5,000-$5,500
Pop 3s--$4,000-$4,500
Pop 4s--$3,000-$3,500
Pop 5s-$2,500-$3,000
Pop 6 and above $2,000 to $2,500

So judge SCP Auctions prices against that benchmark.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Bryan Long

What happened to collecting cards because you love collecting cards. I could care less what grading companies do, what the guy down the street does to his cards. I love my cards, will always love my cards and plan on selling my cards to buy more cards.

Life is too short to fight about this stuff people. This board is such a small place in the collecting world and yet some people on here treat it as the whole collecting world revolves around what is said and done on this forum. People need to relax and start to enjoy the hobby again. Grading companies are not to blame - auction houses are not to blame - YOU ARE!

Take a deep breathe, kiss your wife or significant other, hug your kids - thank God you have a computer to write all of this on - DO SOMETHING! But relax . . . please.

We are not going to change the hobby for the good or the worse. Buy what you want to buy and trade what you want to trade or sell what you want to sell, but have fun for the love of everything holy.

.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

I believe you...I was merely throwing a number out on 8's. I really have no clue other than the few that make it to ebay that I've seen (even those I haven't paid much attention to because what the use for me)

But, maybe your response is what I"m looking for...I agree with what your doing. I really do. However, I know in the end, worst case of what could happen is a fall in prices....and a fall at the top means a fall at the bottom....and even though you have the means to collect the high end stuff, the trickle effect the low end cards (would) get will still hit guys like me in the backside...I trust you understand that.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

You're right Dave. I may be a lot of things, but young is not one of them...but I used to be young, just a long time ago.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

Again, wasn't a slight, I too hope to be older...lol

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

For me as a low end collector, I spend maybe $60 a week on average on a couple cards a week, there are some weeks I go a little stir crazy and will do $100-150, depending on what I've bought raw and got graded and stuck back on ebay because I"m not interested in them. Auction houses have no effect on me....the majority of what they have is high end stuff anyway and I cant compete to begin with, ebay and B/S/T is the only source of buying cards for me.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

Pop 1s--$6,000-$6,500
Pop 2s --$5,000-$5,500
Pop 3s--$4,000-$4,500
Pop 4s--$3,000-$3,500
Pop 5s-$2,500-$3,000
Pop 6 and above $2,000 to $2,500

So, if you paid $6,000 for a Pop 1, and 5 more showed up, you'd lose $3,500. For every 1 that does show up, you lose about $1,000.

You'd have to be pretty nervous sitting on a bunch of Pop 1's if you paid full retail for them.

Just another reason high grade card collecting is totally irrational.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Heck, T206, collecting BASEBALL CARDS is irrational, for crying out loud.

We like what we like. Why get on someone for what he likes?

In any type of collectible, there are people who want the high-end, top-of-the-line, rarest, nicest, biggest, most expensive. Cars, antiques, art, coins, whatever. Why begrudge a guy and call him irrational because of what he likes?

This is a hobby, folks. There's room in it for everybody.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

Most people do not like unsubstantiated allegations against them.

In my prior post I only suggested that someone might have something to gain, a conspiracy theory if you will, and it took only minutes for other to choose sides, with no evidence of any kind.

Perhaps a different angle in your quest for more information from card dealers and card grading services would be more productive for the hobby as a whole.

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

I do have a master plan if Leon allows me to carry it out but I don't have all the good ideas so please speak up.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Allow me to summarize my feelings: the pallor that has clouded this board since Doug Allen made his admission has been simply staggering, and the bad feelings that have arisen are truly demoralizing. Frankly, I don't know why I am still here. But the fact is, no matter how much chatter circulates from post to post, when the sun rises tomorrow it will still be business as usual. I have known for years that altered and restored cards have made their way into holders, so none of this is news to me. I don't think I could even tell the difference between a genuine PSA-8 and a retouched one. But the market is not going to collapse because of posts made on this board. The hobby is bigger than us. We can be an engine for change, but we won't cause a market this large to fall. If some are fed up and want to sell their collections, there will be somebody out there eager to buy it. I think these discussions have gone as far as they can; some dealers have come forth stating their views, a few have gotten into pissing matches with each other, and others refused to engage with this angry mob. I don't think it will accomplish anything to rehash this all over- we all know we have to watch our rear ends when we make a purchase, and that not everything is what it appears to be. How about we call a moratorium on all this stuff and get back to business. Either the hobby is fun, or it's not worth it. And the board in the last few days has been a really depressing place to be. I think we've hit the proverbial wall.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Maybe we can talk--I think it would be a huge mistake to end the process at this point.

Plus look at all we have learned.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: scott brockelman

I can't imagine why there is even a need for a "Plan". It doesn't seem we need a conspiracy theorist to unravel this mystery. What few "bad" cards that may be located in slabs should be removed from the slab and marked as such. A further advancement of alteration detection equipment by the grading companies should be able to counteract much of the future alterations. Again I am talking about trims, colors, rebuilds, etc. Cards which have had pencil erased or traces of such or corners laid back down, should just be graded accordingly.

Again, these posts are perpetuating a myth that the vast majority of cards in high end holders are tainted, which is far from the truth.

However I would like to make one observation. The number of 1950 & 1960 cards in high end 8 and up with problematic cards is probably a much, much higher percentage than prewar cards. This is due to the vast number of cards available to work on if you will. If the operation is not successful, than one merely needs to find another mid grade card to try again. This is a little tougher to do in prewar cards and again the sheer production numbers and slab numbers would lead one to the conclusion that the problem would be greater in those eras. Yet another reason why we should not be getting the collectors in an outrage over what a dealer may or may not have replied to in a post.

Scott