Deleted auction thread

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Guys- I deleted the auction thread of Charlie's as there was some erroneous information in it. It is this boards policy to let threads go if folks put their names or well known ID's by their posts. Ya'll can have at it again as long as you put your name by it. I will again warn everyone that what you say on this board you can be held legally liable for. IF someone accused me of something I didn't do I very well might seek legal action, especially if it hurt my business. With all that said everyone can post what they want per the board rules....though I would prefer to let it drop. Post away....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard

Leon - for those of us who were following the thread you deleted and were perhaps swayed by what was previously said, which part was erroneous?

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I would like to know what was erronious too. I didn't notice any anon posts, but then there may have been one since the last time I looked.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Jay- you may post anything you want in order to rat someone out. I will not let the one who starts the allegations erase their initial post. That, more than the erroneous info (mainly my scan I erased), set me off. If you start it stay with it....Post away..

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I stayed with it until the main people that were involved in the whole thing were posting. My orignal post was simply a copy of the email and asking if others thought there were problems with the linked auctions. I deleted it and the email was reposted by someone else. I don't see the problem as the main thrust of the original still existed on the thread. You could have emailed me and asked me to repost it if that was your problem. I would have gladly reposted it since there were some things posted that probably needed to be brought out in the open.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

If you feel so strongly it needs to be in the open then put your name next to it, leave your name by it, and post it....I don't care..Good night...

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I really doubt the second time around we are going to get the same responses. If Charlie, Brian of Greg want to restart the thread, it's up to them. They are the principles.

I used to have a lot of respect for even with all the head butting we've done, but you lost a little of it, not that you really care. I'm pretty sure of that.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

How am I a principal? I only posted the links I had been sent after Charlie decided to toss my name in this and start trouble. I think that Charlie should be explaining some of the lots in his auction rather than attacking people.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie named you and Brian as the people behind the email that was circualted to various board members.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

That is not the only thing Charlie is not telling the truth about.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Greg has said privately he had nothing to do with the email. So until the truth is revealed I will apologize to him for mentioning his name. I was told that by some people but they could have wrong.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: B.C.Daniels

I stated I had nothing to do with it. Just because I was aware of it and know Greg and teased you about it does not mean it derived from me. Apart from that,I will stand my other responses and replies to your comments. I am not a card dealer and this is not my "life" thus I have no motive to barely care about what you do short of threatening me by calling at 10:30 tonight! I told you my daughter was using my cell phone and you ignore this and call me multiple times over the past two days. send me my property back. thanks!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I have no idea what this is about just because I go to bed early. All the good stuff happens in the middle of the night. Don't you guys ever sleep?

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I am also clueless...

but would love a "summary" of the whole thing if possible, please.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve M.

Ditto

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

There has been an anonymous email floating around that has links to some ebay auctions and another board members auctions in the same email. The links are supposedly damning evidence, about trimming and/or alterering, which I am not so sure about. Might be, might not be. Jay B posted them last night, started a fight, then erased the initial post. I am not sure of the analogy but sort of like going to court with evidence, leaving the evidence, then leaving court. I didn't care for that. IF you start something with others then you need to not erase what you started. I told everyone to re-post if they wanted to. Because of that now Jay B has lost respect for me. I will never be the same. I got the same anonymous email privately and deleted it, a few days ago. Hope this helps....

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, I gather someone says Charlie is selling cards that MAY have been altered in some manner.

But I presume they are slabbed cards (knowing Charlie and his auctions) and that any "funny stuff" may have happened before the cards were consigned to him?

OR... there may NEVER have been any funny stuff in the first place?

Was Charlie given the right to explain or clarify?

Or was the evidence so "bogus" that it wasn't needed?

[Archive]

Posted By: ScottIngold

I really hate when one of the good guy's gets slammed here.

I would love to see this email with the damning evi.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I got several copies of that email, but deleted it. I guess I should have looked at it.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

LEon, I have not lost all respect for you, jsut a smidge.

Basic synopsis of the original thread.

I posted a copy of the email asking for opinions on what others thought. The most damning evidence being a Crofts Candy Young that looked like a wrinkle was pressed out and stray ink spots or whatever they were being removed.

Charlie posted saying the wrinkle was still in the card and admited that he cleans cards (erase pencil adn ink) remove stains and other things, but said he didn't alter, trim or color cards.

I deleted my taking Charlie at his word and had a note for Leon to delete the thread. Between the time I did that and checking again, an exchange had gone on between Charlie, Greg and BcD. My original post we reposted by somoene, so it was still there, just not at the begining.

At that point, since the original post was back on the thread, I removed the request for the thread removal because I felt with all the relavent facts back on the thread, it was worth keepig up. I guess since the original post was no longer at the top, Leon had a problem with that. Just wish he had emailed me first, I would have put it back up.

Needless to say, there were interesting accusations tossed back and forth between Charlie and Greg, and BcD, who all made some interesting points and claims that should have remained. Leon also chimed in with something, but he already edited out scan mentioned earlier in this thread.

Then Leon deleted the thread and started this one. I've been here long enough that everyone that reads on a regular basis should know that I will stand behind my posts and if I make a mistake, I will admit to it.

That pretty much sums it up

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Sounds like a little too much was already deleted from this discussion to make much sense of it. I think what's left might thus be read out of context. Probably best to just move on.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

yeah, that's why I was disappointed when Leon deleted the thread becuase now we have this, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Hard to blame Leon when the poster both removed the content of his original post and requested that the thread be deleted, it seems to me. I wish you hadn't done that Jay because now we are left with vague, second hand reports ("and other things" for example) rather than what the charges were and what explanations were offered.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, why not re-post the original email? I think we should have the right to make a determination of this issue on our own. I have placed a number of bids in this auction and would really like to know if I'm buying altered material. Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Jay- once again I have no issue exposing stuff on this forum. It's one of the great things about it. No one, not me, not you, not anyone in the hobby, can hide from it. This was a difficult decision but I would prefer to err on the side of caution when it involves someone's business. I hope you understand. I would do the same thing for anyone. I try to be as impartial as I can.....I can only imagine if there was banner advertising going....I would be accused of doing this for monetary reasons. That is a concern of mine going forward with that trial. I know, in my heart, I will do what I feel is the right thing to do...but no doubt some won't believe me....

edited for grammar...I changed something correct to incorrect and back to correct

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jeff,

That was the whole point. There was no altered material. Somebody created an email that shows before and after scans of cards that were bought by me on ebay and then upgraded. But the thing was that the cards were high-end for the grade when I bought them and nothing was done or had to be done to get the upgrade. The cards were cracked out and resubmitted and given a higher grade. What they didnt show were the examples of cards that were cracked out and received lower grades and or the same grade.

I made the point that I have never and will never trim or alter cards.

The emails do not prove anything other than the fact that I obtained a favorable grade. In fact, one of the cards in question was bought by me in a "3" and got bumped to a "4". The card had a crease when I bought it and still has a crease and I disclosed the crease in the auction.

I have been nothing but honest or upfront in any way as a dealer or auctioneer.

In fact, the other point that was made was, if I was up to nefarious activities why would I hold myself out to the public and stand behind the cards that I sell or auction?

Why not do what many others do? Trim and alter and get the cards graded successfully and them give them to an auction anonomously and never have to be held accountable.

This email was a deliberate attemp to defame me and hurt my business.

I have contacted my attorney and he is reviewing any and all public statments that were made. Also my best friend works for the FBI, he is researching the IP address etc that was used to send the anonomus email.

I have nothing to hide.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

According to Jay's recounting of the deleted thread you said that you do do things that many people do not consider alteration such as pen and ink removal. It would be helpful, I think, if you could clarify whether or not you did say that and if so exactly what you did say, so we don't have just Jay's second hand account. Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Peter,

No problem. My personal opinion and I know that it others disagree is that I will remove someting from a card if it was not on there when it was made. I gave an analogy.

If you own a all original 57 chevy and you take it out for a spin and while doing so a bird ****s on the card. Do you and can you remove the bird stain and still maintain that the car is 100% original.

So to answer your question. I have tried to erase pencil and or pen. Alot of times it does not work, meaning it will not come all the way off.

I have never used any chemicals such as bleach etc.

Just a little saliva and a finger and or art gum eraser.

Caramel stains and tobacco stains can be reduced but never removed alltogehter in my experience so I do not spend much time with them. But I have tried in the past.

Keep in mind I was doing these things when I was 10 years old.

The last thing I will do, is put a card in a screwdown or glass block in order to lay down a corner that has been fliped up or flaten out a card.

Which I ironically I did also when I was a kid by putting my best cards inside books to protect the corners and keep them pointy.

If you speak with the grading services privately they will not consider any of things I have talked about as alteration.

I am an open book to my customers and auction bidders. I have a family and am not in the business to cheat or deceive anyone to make a buck.

I spent 10 years trading securities for a living so I have a little money saved and do not need to engage in unethical practices that might go unnoticed in order to profit.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"yeah, that's why I was disappointed when Leon deleted the thread becuase now we have this, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense."

It didn't make much sense after you deleted your post last night, either.

Seems to me that if you're going to take a poke at someone's livelihood by suggesting improprieties in a public forum, whether you're right or wrong, you should be prepared to stand by statements that you make.

Don't get me wrong, Jay, if I had made the post you made last night, and then saw where the thread was going, I might have gotten nervous and wanted to delete it as well.

But I certainly wouldn't have come into this thread and started taking potshots at Leon over it. Leon isn't the guy who started the thread and then backed out of it when it got heated. After you deleted your post, all that was left was Charlie, Greg and Brian defending themselves and taking stabs at each other over a thread you started. If I were you I'd be happy Leon deleted it.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Once a card is in a reputable holder, the grade of the card is defined by a defensable expert. It may or may not reflect the card's condition, but it establishes its grade.

What occurs prior to holdering is open to speculation. For all cards, for all time. That is, until the time exists that our technology can eliminate undetectable alterations.

You think that a crease has been pressed out? A mark erased? A corner rebuilt? Go ahead, make yourself crazy in the pursuit of the ultimate pristine.

Give me the lifted butt, tummy tucked, silicone and colegen injected pseudo babe. I ain't gonna marry my cards. I just like the way they look. And feel. And smell. Taste?

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

There is a copy of the entire thread out there. Right now it saved in a format that I cannot decode properly so I am trying to clean it up so it is readable. The only thing being edit out is all the gobbledy-gook for graphics. I'll post it as soon as it is done.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Ok, here is what was saved of the previous thread. It was saved up to the point where the links got reposted. There were some other posts there, one by Leon which I think he wants permanently erased anyway but the gist of the whole thread is there. Most of what was lost was an echange between Charlie and Bcd that they can rehash if they like.

Here it is. It's a bit of mess with all the html code in it, but I was having a hard time deciphering usernames from it, so I left it as-is.

deleted, answers were good enough for me.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

This message has been edited by sabrjay on Oct 21, 2006 1:25 AM
This message has been edited by sabrjay on Oct 21, 2006 1:00 AM
This message has been edited by sabrjay on Oct 21, 2006 12:47 AM
====
"http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/post?messageid=1161404912" ¶Respond to
this message§áááAuthorReply
 HYPERLINK "paulcrstratton" ¶paulstratton§
paulstratton
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/smokeyjoewood"
¶smokeyjoewood§)drOctober 21 2006,á12:42 AMá

I didn't overlap them or anything but it looks like he cracked out high end cards and got
them bumped. What doctoring are you talking about?

=====

 HYPERLINK "sabrjay@yahoo.com" ¶jay behrens§ jay behrens
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/sabrjay" ¶sabrjay§)Re: Man
on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:04 AMá

Look at the Young card. There is a crease in the upper left corner tha disappeared along
with the black spots on his arm. You can tell it's the same card by looking at the back.
Aligned the same the same stain appears in the D of "candy". You can also see where the
crease broke the black boarder and they didn't recolor that spot

Jay
=====

áá
 HYPERLINK "cbarokas42@yahoo.com" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie
Barokas
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK"
¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:09 AMá

Jay,

Thank you for giving me credit for having such a good eye for upgrades. Part of my
business is to by cards that look high-end for the grade and crack them out of their holder
and resubmit them in an attempt to get a higher grade.

I do not deny that all the examples you have shown are upgrades that I have gotten.
However, you forgot to show how many losers I have to go along with the winners.

I will say this one time. I have never trimmed, added or removed from a based card.
baseball card.

I have erased pencil or pen marks and or removed stains from cards.

I have nothing to hide. I am completely honest about the cards I crack out.

Please feel free to bring any example to the forefront that shows the card has been
trimmed or altered. You will not be able to find one.


The information that was provided to you, was generated from Greg Schwartz and Brian
Daniels.

This an attempt to defame and or hurt my business for their personal enjoyment.

I have contacted my attorney and we will monitor all allegations made in public forums.
Including mass emails and other general communication.

I have done nothing to Greg or Brian but be nice to them when others said they were
questionable individuals.

Brian has been emailing me as of late insulting me and trying to get me to engage him
and I refused to do so which I believe made him furious.

People who know me and the truth about the way I conduct business, know that I am
honest and have never trimmed or altered a card.

Some people may have had a problem with me in the past but that is life and I make many
honest mistakes. Many of which I have tried to rectify including you Jay.

Charlie
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 HYPERLINK "sabrjay@yahoo.com" ¶jay behrens§ jay behrens
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/sabrjay" ¶sabrjay§)Re: Man
on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:19 AMá

If you don't alter cards, then what happened to that crease in the upper left corner of the
Young card? It is no longer there. The only way that could happen is that you either
doctored the card or the scan. Either way, it doesn't look good.

Jay
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 HYPERLINK "Bicem@hotmail.com" ¶Jeff Prizner§ Jeff Prizner
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/Bicem" ¶Bicem§)Re: Man
on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:20 AMá

Jay,
I think the crease not showing up as well on the Young card is just a difference between
the two scans. Charlie calls out the crease in the description.
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 HYPERLINK "jkrasner@maupintaylor.com" ¶JK§ JK
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/jkrasner2" ¶jkrasner2§)Re:
Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:20 AMá

I agree with Paul - all of the cards look like they were cracked and bumped up a grade. I
dont see any evidence they were trimmed. I still see the crease in the regraded young - I
just think Charlie's scan doesnt show it as clearly - that is probably because of the
brightness of the scan - tends to hide minor wrinkling/creasing. I have also seen several
cards in charlie's auctions that did not bump. For example, in his last auction he had a
beautiful e93 sgc 40 wagner that was sold by Hal on ebay. That card was crossed to a
PSA 3 (ie no bump at all). I am very familiar with that card - its a great card and I have no
doubt that had someone wanted to, it could have been trimmed and bumped up
significantly - it wasnt.

This message has been edited by jkrasner2 on Oct 21, 2006 1:25 AM
=====
ááCharlie Barokas
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK"
¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:24 AMá

Lastly,

If I was really guilty of something unscrupulous why would I run auctions and stand
behind the cards?

Why not do what Greg admitted doing? Giving cards anonomously to auction houses in
order to not have to stand behind the card?

If he was so proud of the Kid Eberfeld? Why did he not just sell it under his own name on
ebay and save the 17.5%?


The people in this hobby that collectors need to worry about are those people who alter
cards and then in bulk give them to auction houses to lauder themselves from the card.

I don't give many cards to auction houses because I am not ashamed of any of the cards I
sell and would by any of them back. Because I do not do anything to the card that is
consider alteration.

I know there is a group of purist our their that will condemn me for erasing pencil or pen
or removing a stain. I accept their opinion but I do not agree with it.

The example is, if you own an all original 57 Chevy and you take is out for a spin and a
bird ****s on it, do you remove the **** or do you put it back in the garage with the bird
**** on it?

Charlie
=====
áá
 HYPERLINK "cbarokas42@yahoo.com" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie
Barokas
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK"
¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Man on the Rock auctionsOctober 21 2006,á1:28 AMá

Jay,

SGC is much tougher on corner creases than PSA. Josh is correct the crease is still there, I
disclose it in the auction. PSA just did not view the crease as enough to knock the card
down to VG.

It is true that all three of the big three have different nuances to the way they grade the
same thing and as a dealer who is trying to feed his family, he must take advantage of the
difference. I think many collectors do the same.

What Greg and Brian have done is also unfair to my consignors. Over 70% of the cards in
my auciton are consignments. It is a shame that someone who consigned to me would get
hurt by this.

=====
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§

 HYPERLINK "cardknowledge@earthlink.net" ¶BcDaniels§ BcDaniels
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/B.C.Daniels"
¶B.C.Daniels§)Charlie...pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:32 AMá

You are kidding yourself! ""

1) I e-mailed you to tease you. If not for you posting here I would not even involve
myself. Your "belief" I am furious is nonsense. But you are clearly a liar. Tomorrow, I
will expose your comments about washing, cleaning and pulling corners and creases out
of cards you stupidly stated PUBLICALLY at the Hollywood Park show about two years
ago to "Adrian" in front of several people. Funny how after I sent you a couple of links to
your "Anthony932006" yesterday then instantly you then tried to CALL me on the phone
several times to discuss what you would NOT put in e-mails!

This then was followed up by some "pleasant" e-mails and now youÆre accusing me of
something I knew about all along and yet had nothing to do with! Maybe you should use
your pee brain to trace the IP of the letter sent around and you'll figure out where and who
it came from! You got caught AGAIN with your pants down Charlie and want to
circumvent your immoral activities on me!!!!
I am not a dealer Charlie, I have a job maybe you could explain what motives I would
have in this??? You got it-none! I sent you my B-18 blankets to sell through the auction
and you think I have some motive for exposing your wanton greed??. Tell me then
Charlie, what would my motive be???

You purchased that CY Young card from LEON***
Then you removed the crease, cleaned it and resubmitted it! The scans are obvious!
Wonder what Leon is going to say when he wakes up and sees that card Charlie! How
will you blame this on me? You did the same thing with a board members card I could
post. Privatizing your handles and changing the handles every 30 days as you do wonÆt
stop the people you buy from in sharing these things Charlie. It just makes you look as
shady as you are!

You should have kept your mouth shut at the Hollywood park show. You never know
who is looking at your cards as you are describing what you did to them! I'll stand by that
fact Charlie! There are other people who heard you, deny it and they might just come on
here and infuriate YOU! You dug your own hole don't even mention me in pretending I
am down there with you. Send back my B-18 blankets pronto!
=====

áá
 HYPERLINK "cbarokas42@yahoo.com" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie
Barokas
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK"
¶MANONTHEROCK§)Re: Leon, delte this pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:39 AMá

Brian,

You must be drunk? I have never seen you at Hollywood park in my life.

Maybe you should read the description, the crease is still on the card and I disclosed in
the description.

Brian, don't hate me for this but you are the craziest most whacked out individual I have
ever met. You are a compulsive liar.

You never fought in the Octagon.

You never stormed a mountain in the Grenada conflict.

You do not own 80,000 caramel cards.

You do not own a Gym.

I could go on and on.
=====

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 HYPERLINK "cardknowledge@earthlink.net" ¶Anonymous§ Anonymous
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/B.C.Daniels"
¶B.C.Daniels§)Re: Leon, delte this pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:44 AMá

Brian,

You must be drunk?

I DO NOT DRINK!  INCLUDEPICTURE
"" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶
§




I have never seen you at Hollywood park in my life.


YOU DID NOT KNOW ME THEN AS I ONLY MET YOU FORMALLY LAST YEAR
AT THE SAN FRANCISCO SHOW!  INCLUDEPICTURE
"" \* MERGEFORMATINET ¶
§



Maybe you should read the description, the crease is still on the card and I disclosed in
the description.

Brian, don't hate me for this but you are the craziest most whacked out individual I have
ever met. You are a compulsive liar.

CHARLIE YOU;LL DENY IT BUT IF YOU CALL ME AGAIN AND CALL ME THE
THINGS YOU DID AT 10;40 PM MY TIME ( ITS LOGGED IN MY PHONE***) I
WILL FILE A POLICE REPORT ON YOU!





You never fought in the Octagon.

You never stormed a mountain in the Grenada conflict.

You do not own 80,000 caramel cards.

You do not own a Gym.

I could go on and on.

YOU COULD BUT:

A) WHO SAID I OWNED A GYM?

2) IT IS MERELY A CIRCUMVENTIVE TACTIC TO DENY AND DEFLECT THE
OBVIOUS.

I DECIED I AM GOING TO CALL THE POLICE RIGHT NOW JUST TO NOTE IT
ON FILE AND HAVE THEM CONFIRM YOU JUST CALLED ME.

=====
áá
 HYPERLINK "cbarokas42@yahoo.com" ¶Charlie Barokas§ Charlie
Barokas
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/MANONTHEROCK"
¶MANONTHEROCK§)Gregs response via email to meOctober 21 2006,á1:46 AMá

You are a stupid **** and you will pay. First you out my buying id
to people because you thought I was the one responsible for giving
people info about you. Who the **** do you think you are? I will
crush your business you stupid ****. I have had it with you ripping
into me without provocation. Wanna see your auction business go down
the drain? Watch.

Now go **** yourself ****head.


Greg Schwartz
Bottom of the Ninth
1910 Montana Avenue
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310-829-5937
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Bottom of the Ninth
(Login  HYPERLINK "http://www.network54.com/Profile/BOTN" ¶BOTN§)Re: Leon,
delte this pleaseOctober 21 2006,á1:53 AMá

If you have nothing to be ashamed of then why start attacking me? Please explain to us
how these cards bumped two grades after you bought them? For someone who is
threatening legal remedies why start attacking innocent people? Does not make a good
case for you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160031935644

http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5034

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130019001385

http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5008

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200029196072

http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5021

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280018174907

http://www.manontherock.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=5026
====

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Al, don't get me wrong, I had at one point posted asking that the thread be deleted. When it had not and my original post reposted, I removed that request since the impetous for the thread was returned and at that point, I felt there was too much worthwhile info for the whole thread to be deleted. Leon has contacted me about posts I've made before, just wish he had done that with this one.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Jay it still isn't clear to me anyhow why you asked for it to be deleted in the first place. But in any event it seems between the reposting of it and Charlie's clarification and the other comments we now more or less know what the issues and responses are as if it had not been deleted. I guess the bigger question, which has been rehashed many times in many contexts, is the acceptability or not of certain (looking for a neutral word here) practices and where each of us would draw the line. It seems that one will always be with us.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

BOTN, MANONTHEROCK, BcD, Jay Behrens - take it away. We tire of your soap opera.

I know, just don't click on it Gil, but let us have our fun.

You are right, go have your fun.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I had posted asking for other opinions on the cards. Charlie posted and gave satisfactory answers to all the cards except the Young. I still don't buy that the crease scanned differently. The crease is far too pronounced to just disappear in another scan. If you look at the eBay scan, there is noticable ridge where the crease is. I don't care how bad your scanner is, that ridge shouldn't disappear.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gil, the doctoring of cards is a major issue for our hobby. Many people would prefer to jsut ignore the 800 pound gorilla and hope goes away. Others want to see something done about it. When questionable things come up, they need to be exposed. Charlie did good job explaining all the cards except the Young. I'm not convinced that wrinkled wasn't pressed out.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Was Charlie contacted privately, before being "called out" on an internet message board? If not, that seems pretty bush league to me.
And so what if his "explinations" were satisfactory or not to whomever questions his cards? Just don't bid on them then.

C'mon, its baseball cards guys! Lets have fun!

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: barrysloate

There are so many issues here that it is hard to know where to begin, but if Charlie's auction is 70% consignments as he says, he is being put in a terribly awkward situation with his consignors. They are not involved in any of this yet their material may now suffer because of these allegations. I also want to mention that I received these emails and the sender was MANONTHEROCK, so if they were not sent by Charlie, he should know that somebody stole his identity. This is really sordid stuff.

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Posted By: Noel

Wow, Brian Daniels and Greg Shwartz seem to be a couple of real charmers. And how do you think you two will be remembered for this type of mean spirited garbage? Threating to shut down a mans livelihood during the middle of his auction, very impressive. This isnt the first time we have had the treat of Brians verbal diarrhea when he has a disagreement. Must be a new way of communicating when no other real words will work.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Again for me Charlie has been nothing but a class act.

Why does it seem someone is doing all they can to harm him ? This is just plain wrong on so many levels it makes my head spin.

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Posted By: leon

Please email me privately....nothing personal, I promise.....

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I have two questions:

[1] Charlie posted [and then deleted] the following in a thread here earlier this year..

"I have nothing to hide. Scott or someone before Scott attempted to remove the stain from the back of the card, in doing so they also stired up many of the fibers on the back. I simply removed more of the stain and layed the fibers back down."

What does that mean? Is that alteration or restoration?

[2] Why would anyone bid on a card at PSA 6 prices when it was available on EBAY as a PSA 4?

Frank

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Posted By: leon

Not sure if you were looking for my opinion but I could see how a tiny piece of a card would flip up and someone flip it back down. What flips up is fibers/paper. I would stop at anything more than water or saliva on putting it back down. Grading companies (at least the best one(s)) will catch glue and not numerically grade because of it. As for anyone buying a card in a 4 or 6...well, not to be condescending sounding but, it's worth more in the 6 holder. I could see a smudge being removed from a card and a 2 grade bump given. Not sure I care if the smudge came off and the grade was higher..again, I do not know the particulars of what you are talking about but those are my generally feelings. For the record I have absolutely no issue buying from Charlie, Greg, or BCD.....No issue at all.....best regards....

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Posted By: Mark

I have a question for Charlie.

In one post this morning, you say "There was no altered material..nothing was done or had to be done to get the upgrade. The cards were cracked out and resubmitted and given a higher grade."

In your next post, you list list your techiniques for imporving cards (erasing, removing stains, laying down corners, art erasers, etc.) that you have use in the past.

Did you use any of these techniques on any of the cards offered in your current auction or were they merely cards you cracked out and resubmitted?

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Thanks for your response. I just see the second issue as a transgression against the First Commandment..."Ye Shall Buy the Card and not the Holder.

Frank

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I thought the First Commandment was "Don't but put price stickers on the front
of the PSA holders as it's a bitch to get that sticky stuff off."

I think the fourth is, "Don't dry your Armour Coins in the microwave."

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Posted By: Cobby33

.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

If I had written it I would have signed my name to it-period! I am not the type of person or have the kind of personality that would hide behind that sort of thing. Everyone knows that!
Charlie could easily have the point of origin traced if he wanted to and stop accusing people of things before doing the research!

"An innocent man needs no defense." My wife would love to talk to his wife about calling my house in a tirade at 10:40pm late last night threatening me-which he did! He can take that to anyone he wants! It's logged in my phone I specifically told him one day prior that the phone was being used by my daughter. this was expressed through e-mail when he was pretending to be nice and wanted to "talk" (because he wouldn't write about this stuff)several times two days ago. Gee,given all the slams he wrote about me why the "plesantries" via several e-mails to "talk"?
I will stand by my replies to his circumventing accusations that have nothing at all to do with this issue. In this issue,my charactor is of no consequence here. I am not running auctions nor am I a card "dealer".
I will stand by my comment concerning the Hollywood Park show. Charlie didn't see me as he puts it because he had no idea what I looked like at the time. I knew who he was as he made a point of telling everyone. He wanted to buy there cards as well as sell them some! There is another person who he has engaged on the chat board in a negative manner than can quote comments he made at that show.He didn't or doesn't know what they look like either unless he has formally met them since.

The Cy Young I was reffering to was NOT the mello mint e-105 in his present auction or owned by Tony,but the SGC 40*** CROFTS CANDY blue back Cy Young he purchased from Leon under privatized handle number whatever that is changed every 30 days as is all his handles are in hopes you lose track. It will be interesting to see what grade and what company holder that ends up in on the market when it is again for sale.

The personal attack on me was both baseless and uncalled for.Charlie jumped to conclusions and should now know better after what has been relayed to him through e-mails by others. I merely relayed to him privately tips on this stuff and would never have discussed it publically if not dragged into it by Charlie! using me as a public deflection for things that have no cercern or bearing on my collecting prowess. He has yet to appologize for his public blunder and his terroristic phone call.My wife is not happy about that and expressed that to the authorities.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Brian,

I sincerely apologize to you if you had nothing to do with it. I also apologize to your wife for calling so late but I was being unfairly attacked and I made a poor choice to call you.

On the other hand, I have been in contact with many people who have said that if you did not circulate the email you certainly instigating the situation. Encouraging others to put the info on the 54 board etc.

I cannot confirm anything at this point. My main concern is that the truth available so those that bid on my auctions or by cards from me can make an informed desicion.

Once again, its unfortunate this thing happen but in a way I am glad that this dirty laundry has been aired and so people can make up their own minds, rather than a few people trying to influence people in a private way.

What is not cool and not ok was the fact that someone sent out a mass email which they assumed my identity in an attempt to defame or hurt my business.

I will get to the bottom of the whole thing. And you are correct I have contacted my friend with the FBI to check IP addresses etc.

Charlie