Grimsley implicates Clemens in steroid/HGH case

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Posted By: jay behrens

Well, looks like my and the beliefs of other about Clemens has been proven. At least according to the standards of guilt used for Bonds. The article is in the LA Times.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Joann

I agree. I've been just amazed that somehow he has stayed above the accusations despite his build, quick recovery and even size of head/face. I'm not saying he does or doesn't - I couldn't care less. But he should at least be subject to the same scrutiny and defensive posture as Bonds and the rest.

Somehow it's seemed unfair to me that America's Jerk (Bonds) has been beat to hell the past few years, but somehow America's Hero (Clemens) gets a free pass. Makes me think it's the marketers and money guys behind it.

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

He also implicated Andy Pettitte.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Just to add, I'm willing to bet that Clemens doesn't make antoher comback. There was a lot of specualtion that he was trying to pass Sphan on the wins list, but this should pretty much end his career. Now it will be interesting to see if he goes into hiding like Magurie, which I what I suspect he will do.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The sport is starting to rival football for the length of its police blotter.

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Posted By: Jay

Two of the best seasons that Clemens has ever has ERA wise have been the last two, a time when testing was active. Makes you wonder if Grimsley's accusations are based on jealousy or fact.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The proof against Clemens rests entirely on Grimsley's word (one witness). The proof against Bonds rests on the word of dozens of witnesses, his own testimony and documentary evidence.

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Posted By: Eric B

There is testing now, but not for HGH which, btw, makes your head grow. So compare their heads from pics in their 20's to now.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Implications of steroid use are rampant these days. Some are true, and some aren't. And it's very difficult for the average fan to know who or what to believe.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I'd like to see Roger go into hiding. Also, I'd like to hear no more talk about him being the greatest pitcher of all time. As Steve Somers of WFAN likes to say, "I mean, look already."

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Posted By: Paul

Interesting that both Clemens & Pettite are named. From what I understand, the two of them are best of buddies.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I thought Andy loves Jesus and doesn't curse, drink or smoke? No way could he be a juicer. Um, right?

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Posted By: MikeW

Jeff,
If it's good enough for Pat Robertson... why not Andy Pettite

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Posted By: Josh K.

its amazing that you are convicting the guy based on nothing but one other player's accusation. if you recall, there is a hell of a lot more circumstantial evidence indicating that bonds was on the juice than the accusation of one other player.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Id like an honest opinion from people. How many of you are surprised to hear anyones name? Im alot more surprised you dont hear any football players names which to me means they fudge the test results or theyre all on hgh.It wouldnt surprise me to hear anyones name and thats why it doesnt mean much to me,because if a majority are/were doing it then theyre all on the same level.

People go by results and base their decisions whether a guy is guilty or not on that,but look at the people who have been caught and what they were doing,some of these minor leaguers getting caught were doing nothing. I personally know a former player who said half his teammates he knew were doing it at the time,and so did he. His help from juicing.... he went from 6 homers to 3,and his overall slugging dropped too.How do you look at those stats and say oh hes a juicer! You cant,and thats why i assume guilt and dont care anymore.All numbers are skewed but people are undoubtedly going to look back on this era and question everyone who succeeds,so the stats lost their meaning anyway

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Josh, you're obviously right: just one guy implicated Clemens and there is a hoard of evidence against Bonds. That being said, what did Grimsley have to gain by falsely implicating Clemens? If he wanted to get out from under, why not just name low level guys that will not invite scrutiny?

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Posted By: Josh K.

jeff - its a good question, but Im sure there are a host of other possibilities - jealousy, maybe he just doesnt like clemens (not hard to believe that clemens isnt well liked), publicity (naming clemens is better than naming some common player) - just to name a few.

Of course, he could be telling the truth - I just think we should wait before convicting.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't disagree. Could be any reason, including the truth. That being said, while Bonds is not convicted yet - in my book he is convicted of using steroids. If steroid use was a crime, Bonds would be finishing his sentence about now....

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

As I read the story, this is based on an anonymous source's description of what he saw in an affidavit filed by an FBI agent in support of a search warrant (which has been filed in redacted form) about a conversation the FBI agent had with Grimsley. Real solid evidence.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The reporter apparently saw an unredacted version of the affidavit. And an eyewitness's statement is often used to indict and convict in federal courts all over the country (even in some of my cases - shock!). That Grimsely is now disavowing saying these things is expected as he wants to salvage any shred of self-respect he may have left.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Where's the eyewitness statement? So a reporter saw an affidavit in which an FBI agent wrote down some things he says Grimsley told him. By the way Grimsley was last on the same team as Clemens six years ago, is that the time frame he allegedly is talking about?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

No, Peter, by eyewitness statement I'm referring to Grimsely about Clemens. As for the fact that they were last teammates years ago, I presume Grimsely was referring to that period.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Oh, of course, if Grimsley were to testify he saw Clemens do it or that Clemens admitted it to him, then if believed Roger's goose would be cooked, but right now all we have is hearsay from an FBI agent claiming Grimsley said some things to him and Grimsley denying he said those things.

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Posted By: runscott

It's absurd to equate a statement by Grimsley to all the evidence that's come out against Bonds.

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Posted By: cmoking

"...and Grimsley denying he said those things."

Of course he'd deny it. Even if he said it, he'd deny it. No one wants to be ostracized (sp?) from the game and other players like they ostracized Canseco. He has no choice but to lie if he wants to face other players or ex-players in the future. It's the same old philosophy of "don't tell on your teammates" kind of BS.

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Posted By: Jay

My guess is that Grimsley did not say these things. If he did it would ultimately come out anyway so why deny them now.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Of course Grimsely said those things. He was terrified, told he'd go to jail forever unless he implicated others and revealed his sources and athletes he gave the drugs to. Unless he was taped for his statement (which he undoubtedly was not), it will be the word of a federal agent against Grimsley about whether he said those things. And no doubt Grimsely will tell the truth if put under oath with the prospect of going to jail if he lies.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

assuming Grimsley is at odds with the prosecution story as to what he said, is he in danger of being hammered for obstruction?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think it depends on whether they need him for their investigation. If he changes his story then yes (or testifies falsely under oath). But I'm not sure that he matters expect as to his particular HGH dealing and he's already toast. Just like Giambi played dumb to the press that he knew anything about 'roids, when put under oath he folded like a cheap suit; I expect the same from Grimsley. Lying to the press is not a crime; but rare is the athlete dumb enough to continue that lie under oath (Chris Webber and Bonds excluded).

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Posted By: Rhys

Roger does have a really big puffy head. My biggest problem though is that if Clemens is on Roids, why isn't he sharing with the Astros hitters who cost him every other game he pitches. Selfish jerk! The bigger question though, is how can I get Roger in touch with the Seattle Mariners pitching staff for next year so they can all get big swollen melons and be the best staff in the league?

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Posted By: jay behrens

You guys say give Roger a break and not Bonds becuase there is more evidence against Bonds? Why is Grimsley's word any less valid than those that ahve accused Bonds of using. At least he has first hand knowledge of who he sold to and who used. No one has stepped forward and said they sold Bonds steroids or HGH. Let's give this the same amount of time and see if you feel the same way. I knew this would be the pat response from the Bonds haters and those the like Clemens. If Roger was hated as much as Bonds, he would be crucified by now.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, you're missing the point because you seem to hate Clemens so much. The point we're trying to make is that there is only one witness thus far against Clemens and many against Bonds. And Grimsley's first hand account is now being disputed by...him. Compare that evidence to the many who are standing by their stories in which they claim they witnessed Bonds doing steroids.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't hate Clemens. I just find the double standard between Bonds and Clemens hillarious. If I was conspiracy believer, I'd say it was race based. As I said, give this revelation the same amount of time to snowball as Bonds and see if you feel the same way. When Bonds situation first was revealed, he was instantly crucifed by everyone, yet Clemens is given every benefit of the doubt. Yes, I understand one is likable and the other less than personable, but this is no reason that they should be treated differently, unless there is some other reason that people aren't willing to admit to.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Frank

C'mon - if the Rocket really was a juicer, there'd be some sort of public evidence...like if he threw a splintered bat at someone unprovoked during the World Series or something unfathomable like that

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Clemens is well-liked? You're joking. Clemens is despised. And there is no double standard here just the mounds of evidence against Bonds compared to the minor evidence (thus far) against Clemens. I can't wait to trash Clemens and disparage his accomplishments because I find him to be an obnoxious jerk who lies through his teeth every year about wanting to play for a championship - and then signs for the most money. But I really won't feel comfortable calling him a juicer until there is irrefutable proof that he uses steroids - as there is presently with Bonds.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Compared to Bonds, he is well liked. Then again, there aren't many people more despised than Bonds. Still, the media can't help but fall over themselves talking about his accomplishments. I agree with you that he gotten off way to easy for the way he has acted the past few seasons, waiting to decided to play, etc.

Baseball needs to go the route of NFL in regards to steroids and HGH. Players are going to cheat, no matter what, so make a good PR effort but them cheat to their hearts content, that way, everyone is on a level playing field.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Brett

If Bonds was never caught taking steroids, that means that he could still be on them, along with probably half of the league for all we know. its pretty "funny" that everyone's HR, RBI and AVG have gone up rediculously since 1998.

OH YEAH !! thats when some guy hit 70 homeruns and another guy hit over 60 a couple times over the next few years. gee gollie, they must be legit players !!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Some think that MLB put more rabbit in the ball in '98 and for a few years thereafter. Then withdrew it and fostered the 'roid coverup.

But not everyone is a conspiracy theorist.

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Posted By: MINE'S MINT

the true shame of all this in my eyes is that if both Bonds and Clemens did in fact use performance enchancing drugs.. then they have both squandered their pre-established hall of fame caliber carrers.. even without the juice these two players were already dominent figures in baseball and both on their way to becoming hofers.. (unlike sosa who never had the numbers and mcguire who couldnt stay healthy enough to ever display his true potential)..

ive made the personal choice of not judging clemens until proven guilty because as of right now the stigma attached to accusing ball players of using is as ridiculous to me as the red scare, macarthyism and the salem witch trials..

plus it seems that the baseball community as a whole has casually let the evidence pass us by that even our beloved Babe Ruth was popping greenies before games and that they were used frequently for years by God knows which hall of fame players as they were readily availible in the dugout.. amphetamines have been proven to sharpen ones alertness, pereception and reaction time which would fall under the catagory of a performance enhancing drug as it would of course increase a hitters ability at the plate.. this being said should we pass judgement and tarnish their careers as well?..

long story short.. im not defending anyone but while you guys sit and drool waiting for the moment to chastise the most recently accused.. let the fed's conduct their investigations and prove these charges one way or the other before you decide to completely destroy a players reputation.. who's next to be pointed out?.. it could be your favorite player instead of one that has been catagorized as a total jerk by the baseball community at large.. the kind of player whom many of us love to hate..

psa/dna authenticated signature -> Richard M.

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Posted By: Brett

You can't really say that they would have been in the HOF before, because they could have been using steroids for 70 % of their career for all we know.

Anyone who took steroids or used corked bats should be banned for life from baseball.

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Posted By: Rob L

Greg Maddux is on roids!!

Rob L

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Posted By: Cobby33

Do they have names? Last I heard, "believed" witnesses were being wrongfully jailed because they refused to testify.

P.S. I was at the game yesterday when Maddux stole 2nd. Must be on the juice.

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Posted By: runscott

I heard that Rob L said that Greg Maddux is on steroids. I can't believe everyone crucified Barry Bonds when it's obvious, based on Rob L's comment, that Maddux is every bit as guilty as Bonds. You guys have a a double-standard and need to wise up.

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Posted By: MINE'S MINT

brett - "You can't really say that they would have been in the HOF before, because they could have been using steroids for 70 % of their career for all we know."

well by using that theory.. any athlete since the advent of anabolic steroids is potentialy guilty of performing the same act..

people on this board have their doubts regarding these players due to recent performance and recent physical growth.. they are not based on their entire careers..

even you said "..its pretty "funny" that everyone's HR, RBI and AVG have gone up rediculously since 1998..".. so if we use 1998 as a rule of thumb of when steroids became a previalent part of baseball.. (as many tend to do).. bonds already had over 1200 rbi's, over 1300 runs, 411 hr's, closing in on his 2'000 hit while batting roughly .313.. an 8 time all star and 3 time MVP by the conclusion of the 1998 season.. not to mention the gold gloves .. this was all before anyone even suspected he was juiced.. before taking the single season home run crown and going from an athletic build to one of monsterous proportions.. he was without a doubt on his way to the HOF..


psa/dna authenticated signature -> Richard M.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Scott, BIG difference between Rob saying someone is juiced and Grimsley saying it. To my knowledge, Rob has never sold anyone steroids or HGH, Grimsley has. So go pack your snide comment.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My dog's nickname is Roids. When he was a puppy he looked like an alien, and I would call him Android, soon shortened to Roids. The irony of the nickname is he has to eat his dinner on the dining room table, otherwise his 10 poound big brother would take his food.

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Posted By: runscott

Jay, just trying to keep things light. Go back and re-read your posts on this thread, then come back and discuss 'snide' with me.

Plus, Jay, I'm a Clemens fan and the new Clemens-bashing that you have started is just a bit irksome - if you are going to dish it out, be prepared for some backlash from those who think you are all wet.

edited to add: but, in all seriousness, these discussions are fun and interesting, and it's good to be conversing with you again. Plus, I'm extra-cranky today given that my Astros fell short, and your Twins made that incredible comeback. It's always good to see a 'feel-good' story like the Twins taking the pennant on the final day of the season.

I'll pull for you guys all the way through now.

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Posted By: ChuckkieB

This is NOT the first time Clemens has been implicated or accused. Jose Canseco mentioned Clemens as well as Tejada in his book.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Yeah, but didn't Canseco implicate everyone in his book? Plus, Canseco used that book to grind axes. I remember reading in the paper that Canseco thought he wasn't as popular with fans as Will Clarke, because Clarke was white!!!! OMG, that was hilarious - Canseco was a friendly guy who was always smiling, and Will Clarke was just a workman-like player. After reading that bit of racist rubbish, I never had any need to hear anything Canseco had to say - he has a chip on his shoulder the size of a log. So the fact that he implicated Clemens means absolutely nothing.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Just because Canseco is an idiot does not mean he should not be believed. After all, he implicated Palmiero when everyone thought he was crazy to make such an accusation. He also implicated Tejeda, right? Sounds like he's been correct so far...