So how is it done? --- UPDATED... Item Posted

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Posted By: Joe D.

How do you guys handle this situation?....

The short version:
--I see an item I want and have no idea how to put a value on it
--I don't want to point to the actual item, because I know someone will buy it and I will be left out in the cold.

The longer version:
It is an obscure item with no ACC designation... probably would be considered memorabilia as opposed to a card, and more in the world of sports photography I guess.

The item may very well be one of a kind or one of very few. I've done a lot of google research and can't find any item similar to it to compare pricing or recent sales.

To stretch a point, the seller could have told me $10 or $10,000 is the price -- I wouldn't know if either was market value.


How do you guys handle something like this?

I don't want to be a sucker and overpay enormously, and I also don't want to miss out on the item.

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Posted By: peter ullman

i guess it boild down to:

-what are you willing to pay for it
this seems to be more the norm than exception these days with all/most prices so high (out of whack w/guides)

-this is usually the way I decide...previous sales/guides are just a guide...not gospel

just my opinion

pete ullman

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Posted By: T206Collector

...if the card can be looked up in a price guide, do that to get a rough estimate of where you need to be. Then make a bid based on the highest value that you are willing to go, i.e., what it is worth to you.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Ignore the price guides and I pay what I am comfortable paying to get it. I got my Pebble Beach O'Doul that way. I saw it, realized how rare it is, and ignored the price guide to get it.

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Posted By: Joe D.

unfortunitely this item is not in a guide that I know of.

I don't even have a base to start with.


I guess my only option is to play the 'would you rather have' type scenarios in my head.

A tough decision... which means I probably am going to sell stuff I don't want to.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I would contact someone vert trustworthy like Barry Sloate who is not truly a "dealer" that would be interested in sniping the item from you.

Barry is not out buying items for his own collection, so he could be trusted to give you a real opinion about the value of the item based on his abundant knowledge of the hobby.

But you are wise to only trust ONE person like him and not a lot of other folks.

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Posted By: Joe D.

and I've only known Barry to be an honorable person.

but I can't bring myself to ask anyone at this point. That is more a reflection on me and not Barry.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Then you, my friend, are in what we call... a "pickle."




I could get religious and tell you to ask God what to pay.

I could get philosophical and tell you to ask your inner soul what to pay.

I could get Freudian and tell you to ask your mother what to pay.

I could get practical and tell you to ask your wife what to pay.

Or...

I could just tell you to buy the danged thing since you will obviously never sleep again if you let it go!!

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I think the advice of what are you willing to pay for it is good and sound after asking yourself questions like....

How bad do I want it?

Will I ever see another one?

How popular do you think it would be if offered in another venue?

Just how rare is it?

Is it something that will move to the top of the heap in my collection?

If I'm willing to pay this much for such and such, this certainly has to be worth this much.

Is it a cross collectable (like advertising, tobacco and baseball)?

Will I have regrets if I don't go the extra mile on it?

How liquid do I think it would be?

 

 

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Hal and Joe, but I hope I know what the item is. It's a tough situation but my first question is is it something being offered for a couple of hundred dollars or a couple of thousand? If it doesn't set you back too much you can justify any cost because you very well may get a lot of enjoyment owning it. If it is beyond your means, I would be wary because dealers are happy to put extravagant prices on something if they think they can get away with it. Anyway, if I can help, let me know. I'm not always up on prices though. They escalate faster than I can keep up with them.

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Posted By: Joe D.

it is in the thousands $$$

and would be the highest dollar amount I ever paid for a single item.


Its a tough decision for me.

It would definitely go to the top of my collection as far as items I like...
but at the same time - I realize nothing is forever - and I may have to sell one day.

Right now I am considering parting with some of the items I have to then buy this item -
because quite frankly my brain might allow me to grab the item by rationalizing that I am trading other stuff for it.
(because then it is easier for me to judge... what would I enjoy more in my collection)

but as a straight purchase... its hard for me to justify the money (a personal thing I guess).

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Posted By: barrysloate

This is still a mystifying purchase but if it is truly stretching you beyond your means then I would give it a little extra thought. If you want to email me privately what it is, I'll try to help you. bsloate@att.net

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Posted By: anthony

if you want it and feel comfortable spending that "certain" amount for it, then get it, if it is a rare item, especially to you, then dont let the price keep you from getting it...i once spent $14 on a piece of petrified dinosaur dung because i "wanted" it...and i still have it 4 years later. now i know $14 is not the same thing as $1000's, but its the point if you want it buy it

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I almost never consult price guides for anything. I put a number in my head that I'm comfortable paying, for whatever it is, and then I bid that amount. If it goes over that amount, I pass. This way, win or lose, I'm happy.

-Al

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Posted By: Steve M.

though Barry is the "Man". You may email me at jacklitsch@comcast.net

Steve Murray

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Posted By: Jason

please let us know what it is....the curiousity is killing me!!!
honestly, I'm sure many would benefit from your sharing if you are so inclined after the purchase!
Jason

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Posted By: dstudeba

I think you answered your own question in your very first post.

You said that you don't want to point to the item because you know someone else would outbid you. From this statement you are going to get it below market value, and if you needed to sell it, you could just advertise it better than the current seller has.

That being said, if one other person has the same idea, you could overpay.

An example. I found an auction labeled "1913 Baltimore Schedule" if I recall correctly. It had a baseball player on the front, and I knew I had seen it, but couldn't find it anywhere. I debated between putting a monster snipe on it and talking to someone else about it. I finally broke down and asked Zach who identified it as an 'actors series' so the player wasn't an actual player. Since Zach was more interested in it than I, I decided not to bid. JC ended up winning the auction and came on the board asking what issue it was. So JC had found the auction and had the same idea I did.

You can imagine what would have happened if my 'monster' bid had actually topped JC's 'top all bid'.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Jason,

If I do purchase -- I most definitely would post it here.




Steve...
I have complete trust in you, and know from our correspondence that you are a one of the good guys in the hobby...
but you and I have similar collecting wants... I know that because I want everything on your website
so you (like me) would be the target market for this particular item.

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Posted By: Sean

Joe are you looking for a certain T206 card that has an opening bid of $300,000?

I would save my money

Sean BH

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I know of one card that is "unique" that is being shopped right now...

and I can tell you that I think the price is "right" and that I would have bought it back in the days when I was spending.

Unfortunately, my situation dictates otherwise at this time.

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Posted By: peter ullman

all of this suspense sucks!

pete ullman

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Posted By: davidcycleback

You can ask an individual for opinion, and say that you want to buy/bid and only
want advice, not competition. There's a good chance the advisor wouldn't bid on
the item anyway. Though don't do this too often. If you ask about 14 different lots
a week, you can't expect the advisor to not bid on any of them unless you're paying
a salary.

People ask me about lots in auction, and in most cases I wouldn't bid on the lot anyway.
Even when authentic and as adverised, it's usually not something I collect.

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Posted By: fkw

Experience will tell you roughly how rare it is, what it will and has sold for, and thus what its worth. I have been following this hobby for 27 years, and every year I learn a bit more. I know 10X more now than I did 10 years ago, and Im sure 10 years from now will be the same. In the past especially in the late 1980s I missed out on some big items because I just didnt know enough about it.

For example, If I run into a "type card" that Ive only seen 2-3 times in my life I can guarantee it is a very rare card, but someone who has been in vintage for 5 years wouldnt really know that for a fact, and would need to have read it, or have someone tell him its very rare.

*****With that said.

Now my questions since I am curious too.

Is it a baseball card?
Does it have advertizing on it?
Is there a player identified on it?
Is it smaller than a postcard, or larger?
Is it handcut?
Is it pre1900?

If it is not in the SCD, there is a slight chance it may not even be vintage. It may be a modern fantacy issue doctored to look old. Over the years Ive seen a few and been involved in a few "finds" that ended up not being what they seemed to be.

PS If its on eBay, there is a high chance that someone here has already seen it. Good luck. Post it if you do buy it.

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Posted By: Joe D.

FKW,

All of your questions will be answered soon.


I have decided to purchase the item... the seller and I have agreed upon price / and payment is on its way.

As soon as I have the item in my hand... I will scan it and post it here. It will probably be another week or so (especially if it is sent registered mail)


I thank everyone who posted and offered advice... I look forward to any and all comments when I post the item.


Regards,
Joe

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Posted By: Steve M.

Thanks Joe. We all look forward to seeing your find.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I thought it was this...

1869 FOREST CITY BALLTEAM- HOF PITCHER ALBERT SPAULDING
SPAULDING ID THE THIRD FROM THE RIGHTItem number: 190028642303


Which was up a week or two ago, and only myself and a couple of other folks had bid, price was really low, about $16, and the seller cancelled the auction, much to my annoyance.

But this is still up, so it can't be it.

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Posted By: Steve M.

should be posted today if FedEx came in.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Thank you to all who offered advice and help!

Without a doubt, this item becomes the most cherished in my collection.

I am a team card collector, a matty collector, a photography-based collector...
so when I saw this I thought it was the 'ultimate' for my collecting taste.


It is a 1903 Real-photo postcard of the New York Giants on the steps of the Waldorf Astoria hotel. It is a real-photo (developed picture / not a printed one). The scan s do not do it justice... it looks incredible in person.

Matty is front and center. Dummy Taylor next to him. I think McGinnity is on the other side of Matty. It was postally used in 1904.

Any and all comments appreciated. (full photo and closeup of players)

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Posted By: Steve M.

What more can I say!

I see Bresnahan right in front of McGinnity.
Brown right behind Dummy Taylor.
Looks like Van Halren with the moustache.
Mertes, Dunn, Gilbert, Warner, McGann, Miller, Lauder, Babb, McGraw, Bowerman and Cronin...they're all there!

Didn't mean to leave Matty out.

Beautiful, you lucky dog!!

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Posted By: jay behrens

WOW!!! Great piece.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: David McDonald

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Absolutely spectacular. Congratulations on an awesome, awesome piece.

-Al

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Posted By: Joe D.

there is a knockout stamp on the photo....

"Photo by Falk"

Must be Benjamin J. Falk

David can tell us more I am sure... and here is a nice write up he has on the photographer.
http://cycleback.com/photoguide/sportsphotos.htm

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Congrats Joe!

Very cool postcard. As a Bresnahan collector it is real nice to see an image of a young Roger Bresnahan. Thanks for sharing.

Patrick

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The Falk is more than probably Benjamin Falk, as he was an official photographer for the Giants during this time. Falk was one the top baseball and celebrity photographers in New York City.

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Posted By: peter ullman

awesome!!! congrats!

pete in mn

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Posted By: martindl

Fantastic piece. You done good, whatever you paid. As a Mathewson and Bresnahan collector myself, I'm just grateful to know this is out there.

What does the caption at top say, and can you post the back too please.

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Posted By: barrysloate

So you finally got it. Well done! Joe had actually shared this image with me earlier in the week but it was a tiny scan and even Matty was hard to pick out in the crowd. Now that I see it enlarged in all its splendor I think it is among a handful of the best team real photo postcards I've seen. A real winner!

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Posted By: Joe D.

The caption reads... The New York National League Team of 1903.

I kind of packed it up so that I can bring it to SGC... so I will do a back scan for everyone when I get it back / and a new slabbed front scan.

The back basically looks like a Postcard back / address only (not split back) and was stamped by the Post Office in 1904.

I am amazed at the quality of the photo and the postcard itself... it has held up really well. I am hopeful that the slab is the way to protect it for many more years to come.

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Posted By: Joe D.

so how is it done?

Answer:
The first step is a query at a great place like N54. The responses were phenomenal and extremely helpful. A few suggested that I ask 'one' individual, and although difficult at the time to do... I knew there were two that would be the good to seek advice from and who I could trust completely.

So, I contacted Steve M. and Barry and provided them with a tiny scan (provided by the seller) and as good of a description as I could.

Without a doubt... the N54ers responses to my initial statement and the emails from Steve and Barry made my decision process / item assessment a lot easier.

So once again, thanks to everyone who posted / emailed / and shared their knowledge and opinions.


In short: N54 is how it is done.

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Posted By: Steve M.

what are the other team cards you have seen to fill that handful?

runscott, n/k/a walkscott, and I had our eye on this very card many years ago and thought it to be probably the "ultimate" pc. I'd be real interested to hear what might rival it.

And for that matter, are ther any pc's, team or otherwise, that might be considered?

While you're thinking I 'll start a thread on this very question.

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Posted By: barrysloate

1900-10 is the golden age of the postcard so it would be teams from that era. There are nice ones of 06 Cubs and White Sox, not too rare; I recently sold on ebay a silver print postcard that showed Joe Wood as a minor leaguer; and I'm pretty sure I've seen other Giants postcards from ca. 1905. But now that you put me to the task, I'm not sure I have ever seen a better team shot than Joe's. There are some exceptional metamorphic team cards that fold out like an accordian, but they provide individual shots of the players. Unless I am forgetting something obvious, I would be hard pressed to find a more aesthetically posed postcard than Joe's. And while many from that era exhibit printed photographs, his is a real albumen(?)which makes it that much more exceptional. I think there are other board members- JC comes to mind- who have a deeper knowledge of team postcards. His website has some amazing ones.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

WOW! That is awesome. I love how this thread unfolded. The curiosity and the anticipation was worth the payoff. It felt like I was opening a Christmas present when I saw the thread had been updated.

Congrats Joe, that is definitely a cornerstone for any collection!!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I knew you could trust Barry.

Glad you pulled the trigger!!!

Great clarity on the photo!!!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Hal for some very kind words.

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Posted By: ItsStillOnlyGil

We all know this, Barry. The statement of facts,
however, is not kindness. It is simply truth.

And how come so many of the guys in this picture
are bald, or nearly so? Wait - the Hair Club for Men
wasn't started yet. I get it. They shined their domes
then, they didn't paint them.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Yes - it is most definitely an actual photograph.
Continuous tone (not a printing reproduction of a photograph), developed on the postcard paper.

It has a satin look and feel to it, btw.

It is a photograph.... a real-photo postcard.


Also, I agree that JCs collection is absolutely incredible. I am just glad I got this item before he did

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Posted By: Joe D.

Happy to have the Giants Astoria postcard in an SGC slab.

Pleased that they credited Benjamin Falk on the tag.

and I know a scan of the back was requested in this thread...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- interesting that the message on the front is dated Aug 1903 but the postmark is from 1904.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I am not sure what events would lead to the year difference.

I could only guess that the person held onto the card for a while before deciding to use it postally.

In person... it appears as though it is possible the "P.R. Aug. 25, 1903" on the bottom of the card is in a different pen than the other writing on the card.

Probably no way to know for sure... but possibly the Aug 25 1903 date was the date of the photo-shoot itself (at the Astoria hotel), and the person 'P.R.' was there and lucky enough to have been given a print?

Other information to note
...it was mailed to Paris France... so the postal markings may be from Paris. I am not sure how long a postcard took to go from New York to Paris in 1903?
...it seems to have been mailed to P. Reese. Same initials as on the front of the card - could this person have mailed it to himself?

...funny how the card started in New York (Waldorf Astoria)... was mailed to Paris France... and somehow in the last 100 years found its way back to New York.