T206 printing mystery

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I good friend of mine in our hobby (who is one of those that prefers to remain
"under the radar") has this theory on the printing of the T206 cards. And, before
most of you dismiss his theory, he has done professional paper restoration. Back
in the '80s he also restored sportscards. The quality of his work is unbelievable;
as, several members of this Forum who familiar with his work can attest to.
He restored one pre-War card for me and if you were to see it, you would think
it just came out of a pack....it is stunning.

Anyhow, based on his experience in restoring T206's, he is convinced each player's
front pix was printed by American Litho. Co in NY and sent to the various T-Factories
such as Sweet Caporal (NY), Piedmont (VA & NC), etc, etc. These front laminates are
composed of very thin paper and were continuous rolled up fronts in coil-like form
(as in postage stamps). At the given factory these coils were un-rolled and appliqued
onto cardboard whose backs of course were pre-printed with that specific Tobacco brand.

His theory may seemed "far-fetched", and I disagree in part, as my understanding is
that T206' were completely printed in NYC....However, consider these three factors......

1....This would certainly explain the continuous vertical same names seen on many T206's.

2....Fresh uncirculated T206's do have a curved appearance.

3....And, this would explain why no uncut sheets (or even panels) of T206's have ever
been found.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Zach S.

It could also explain some of those miscuts where the front image is fine while displaying miscut backs. But, at the same time, it seems like there would be more misallignment as someone would have had to ensure each front "coil" was properly unrolled onto the tobacco brand backing...

Zach S.
zsmith@as39.navy.mil

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Ted,

while I agree that T206's were most likely printed in a single vertical strip, I don't think they are a 2 part card. Way too many have been soaked to remove paper and glue and none have yet to come apart.

They could have been printed on a rotary press, which would explain the curvature and name at top and bottom happening, but again I do not see how they could possible be a 2 part product. Perhaps blank back rolls were sent and then the back printed on, that I could believe.

Would like to hear others ideas.

Scott

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Posted By: Joann

I'm clueless about the paper processing industry as far as putting two layers together, but it seems to me that if this were the process there would be a whole lot more T206's with delam problems. I don't really see that as a prominent problem with this set.

Also, they would have to have processed a single strip at a time, almost. Otherwise, if they processed fronts by the sheet (which would be the logical way to make a coil of a player) a diamond cut would be almost impossible. (Although, now that I think about it, I don't see a whole lot of diamond cuts on t206's.)

If you are processing a single sheet - say 20x20 images - and you put it on the cutter crooked, the slight crookedness would probably not have a great effect across only 20 frames.

But say you had a long continuous sheet with the same player in a "column" but each column a different player across the width of a sheet - this sheet itself would be in a coil. Then you run the coil across blades spaced the width of the card and slit the coil into individual smaller coils or strips, each strip containing one player. That's the way they take a big coil of steel and make little coils of steel out of it. But it would be the only logical way to process cards into strip coils to send to a back printer. Cutting the paper first and running it through a printer a strip at a time to get the fronts would be moronic in terms of slowness and inefficiency.

So if you are taking long coils of sheets, and slitting them down to player strips and put the coil on the blade crooked, the crookedness would perpetuate and get worse along the coil until eventually the images were being cut as the pictures drifted into the next "cutting lane" so to speak. So you wouldn't have a whole lot of diamond cuts - not like running in set cut square sheets, where crookedness could be tolerated a little more.

Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe they just really dialed in their processes to make sure that it ran straight all the time. Otherwise they'd have ungodly scrap. I guess I'm assuming they didn't cut the paper first and print it in strips after slitting.

Wow. Really interesting concept though. Maybe I'm getting convinced. Because actually they could make a diamond cut if the slitter blades were straight but the cut-off knife (the one at the end that goes chop chop chop and clips individual cards from a strip) were crooked. Now THAT makes sense to me.

Substantial information for or against this theory, to me, would be that 5-card uncut horizontal strip. I think it was in the Halper (?) collection at one point. If it has ads on the back it would almost conclusively disprove this theory - someone would have had to take a piece of a master coil or sheet and truck it up to whatever place printed backs and then figure out how to run it through. If that uncut strip is blank on the back, then I think Ted might really be on to something here.

Joann

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Posted By: jay behrens

The one thing that throws this theory a curve is the Wagner strip. This strip of cards is horizontal, not vertical.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Joann

Yeah - that's the one I was talking about in my last paragraph! Duh. I completely forgot there was a Wagner in it.

It is not impossible that the horizontal strip exists. If there were a master coil with columns of single players, it would be easy - even likely for a variety of reasons - that someone setting it up or whatever would cut across the coil for a horizontal strip.

But the theory says that the strip coils were then shipped to a whole different place - even different states, to have the back put on. So if someone making the master coil cut across for a horizontal strip, the back would be blank.

The only way, if this were all true, for the horizontal strip to have a printed back would be for someone to cut the strip from the master coil (definitely possible) AND somehow get it all the way up to wherever the backs were being either printed or laminated on.

Now it's getting more unlikely, because the horizontal strip, cut for whatever reason and arguably non-salable at the time and probably not intended for sale, would have to have been in two different places and maybe two states. Not only that, but someone would have to figure out how to get the strip in that configuration to run through a piece of equipment that's tooled to run a strip only an inch wide. Either that or hand stamp each back on the horiz strip.

So I guess I'm still in the same place - if the horiz strip is blank backed, I'll think that Ted's post has genuine possibiility. If it has ad back, then the concurrent improbabilities start adding up and I think that manufacture method would be unlikely.

J

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

The multi-card strip as Joann and Jay mentioned, plus the different names appearing at card tops provide evidence against the any configuration of the coil method.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Jay....Joann....Gil

Where do I begin.....Gil, 90% or more of the T206's that have names on both the
bottom and top of a given card have the same name. To my simple thinking that
phenomena lends itself to a continuous vertical strip (or coil....as we used to
get postage stamps years ago) of the same player.

JOANN....Two responses for you.....1st, I am now working on my 3rd T206 set, so
I have had, or seen, many 1000's of T206 cards and there are "diamond cuts".
Not as many, or as pronounced, as are found in E-cards, but nevertheless, they
do occur on T206's. I currently have about 40 - T206's with "Dia Cuts".

2nd....The Halper horiz. strip has no Tobacco back adv. It appears to be a "proof"
of some sort. If you study the lack of colors on several of the cards (especially
on the CYoung and the Bowerman cards, this strip was never an actual production
piece. But, some sort of "printer's experiment".

The fact that Wagner is on this strip, has elevated it to enormous hype. I have my
reservations about it; and, it certainly is not in my mind representative of a real
production run of T206's. Therefore, excuse my skepticism, but I discount it as a
meaningful argument against the "Coil Theory".

Look guys, I have put this out on the table to stimulate discussion....I am not
totally convinced of this. But, it is thought-provoking and I think that is fine.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

How would you explain ghost images/reverse images in the "coil theory?"

With the existence of ghost images and reverse images, I would be more likely to believe that the front images were printed first, and then the cards/sheets were flipped to then do the backs.

Patrick

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Posted By: J Hull

It's an interesting theory conceptually, Ted, and a nice exercise to hear what other experienced collectors think. I have to say I'm pretty skeptical though.

The front laminates would have to have been thick enough to take the multiple layers of ink without turning into a sodden mess and at the same time be thin enough to have been coiled without causing surface wrinkling or crazing.

Also, besides the (in)famous Wagner strip, there are T206s out there that were miscut right to left and show parts of two front images. I have one myself, and will try to scan it later. They're rare but not unheard of.

And Ted, to your friend's third factor, wouldn't smaller, more portable uncut bits (coils or whatever) that were shipped around the country to the T-factories be more likely to have survived in uncut form? I've often wondered why practically nothing in uncut form exists. What has always seemed to me to be the most plausible explanation is that the finished sheets were cut almost immediately after printing and drying. In other words, there weren't stacks of uncut sheets laying around for very long, and almost certainly they were not being shipped to the factories in uncut form. The ATC was a well-run company, but I find it hard to believe (given the techonolgy of the day and the vast quantity of cards printed) that if they'd been shipping uncut sheets (or coils, for that matter), that at some point some box wouldn't have gone astray and some uncut fragment survived to this day.

Jamie

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Posted By: fkw

What about ghost prints (images of front on the back, and images of backs on the fronts)?? Or some of those crazy scrap sheet cut cards that have been seen. I think both the front and back were printed in same location.



http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1145222042/T206+card+with+possible+non-T206+ghost+print

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Posted By: Joann

The back on front or front on back misprints could both happen if you hang the coil upside down on the second print run (through the back printer). It's like ... toilet paper. The front end either hangs down off the front of the roll or down from the back of the roll. If you take the loose end and string it through a press, the opposite side will get printed on depending on whether you had it hung the right way.

I guess that would explain why there are so few of these kinds of misprints - besides the fact that the factory would obviously try to scrap rather than ship them. It is easy to hang a coil upside down, but unusual to run it that way for long before catching the mistake.

And Ted - to clarify my position on the horizontal strip: if the back were printed I would consider this theory to be highly unlikely. If the back is blank (and a poster above said it is), I think it lends credence to the possibility.

J

Oh - I am kind of assuming here that the process of running a coil of paper through a printing press is similar to running a coil of steel through a stamping press.

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Frank:

I always like the way you think!

Patrick

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I still believe this is the method used, a very common use in the era which we are talking and it explains virtually everything.

1. Name top and bottom-continuous strip
2. No sheets or remnants(forget the Wagner sheet)
3. Curved cards
4. No printing plate survivors, they too were curved
5. Ghosts and wet ink transfers could be due to the overlapping roll being produced lying atop each other, even the double printed backs could have been ran thru twice
6. I can't think of more reasons but they will come to me

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Posted By: J Levine

Gents and ladies,
I disagree on the coil process. Several reasons.

First off, These were inserts to be placed in packs of cigarettes and were designed not to be a selling point. Really. The tobacco was the product. This is evidenced by the lack of advertising for T-cards over the several years produced. Why is this important? Cost. Keep the cost down. If inserting cards into packs of American Tobacco Co. product was not profitable, I doubt the company would continue to produce cards for 5 years.

Coils as stated above are expensive. Imagine trying to ship a paper product in 1909. Imagine trying to ship large quantities of paper then. It would cost a bunch just to move the paper across town in 1909. Cars? Trucks? Rail? People? Horses? Expensive. I feel they were printed in large sheets in one place and shipped after all the printing is done to the tobacco packaging facotires. This is only one shipment and can cut down on over printing.

Second is the scraps that we have seen with ghosts, double prints etc. Very tough to explain these. Why would they run the coils through the machines twice, three times, etc. I think they ended up this way because wet large sheets were laid on top of each other.

T205s...not vertical strips of same players. Also printed differently with movable type on the back. The Moran stray line shows that type was removed to print the different backs. Very expensive to do. I have seen rough cuts on T205s that show oversized cards with two cards horizontally. Might be scrap but I doubt it.

I doubt they would revamp their entire printing process for the cards. I am fairly sure the fronts were printed first and the backs were then stamped on (ala my 8th grade graphic arts printing class).

Now I know I am just a 1st grade teacher with nearly no printing experience but I really feel like the larger sheet theory is best.

Joshua

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Joshua

I am somewhat skeptical of coils of T206 fronts being shipped down South, etc.;
however, Railroads were a growing and thriving industry at the start of the 20th
Century and I must disagree with you there. It cost very little to load boxes of
T206's on to a passenger train already heading South.
Also, let's just focus on T206 printing process (T205's are another story).

My understanding is that T206 cards, just like Allen & Ginters, Goodwin Champs, etc.,
were entirely produced in printing plants in NYC. Then were delivered to the Tobacco
Factories in VA, NC, Ohio, etc. to be inserted as Premiums with their Cigarette packs.

And Joshua, there was advertising of these cards (most notable is the famous HINDU
advertisement which surfaced that depicted two T206 cards with a HINDU pack).

Now, let me tell you of my experience with the 1000's of T206 cardsI have had.
Several times I have noticed that due to wear, or whatever, the front of the card
has started peeling off or separating. I presently have a Marquard that exhibits this.
I would show a scan; but, you really need a 3-D picture to appreciate this effect.

This "peeling effect" implies that the front of the card is actually printed on a very
thin layer of paper. And, is indeed laminated onto a thicker piece of cardboard of
which the back is printed on.

I urge anyone to take a poor condition T206 and carefully, using a razor blade or
whatever tool, and try to separate this thin layer (front) from the thicker layer
cardboard back. And, you will see what I am saying.

Old Judges, Allen & Ginters, Buchner's Goodwin Champions, Kimball's, etc. are all
laminated cards (fronts added to backs). So, why would T206's be produced any
different back then ?

The huge mystery that still remains is.....why have we not found any production
quality uncut sheets (or even small uncut panels) of T206 cards ?
We have multiples of all 10 uncut sheets of the 1933 Goudey set, uncut sheets
of the E93 set, uncut sheets of PlayBalls, uncut sheets of Bowman & Topps cards,
and many more too numerous to mention here.

Well perhaps, maybe the T206 cards were not printed in sheet format as all
these other sets were ?

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: martin dalziel

The most plausable explanation is the one that Scott has offered up - rotary printing. Its answers all the queries regarding vertical names, ghost images, lack of coils being found anywhere, etc. The coils theory does not.

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Posted By: J Levine

I agree about the railroads and I considered it but it is still costly to set up two different printing areas. I was also aware of the advertising but if they really wanted to sell the cards, Piedmont advertising would have been rampant. Look at Colgans. They advertised all over with different ads, mags, papers, etc. They were selling cards as much as gum (again my opinion on marketing strategy).

Now consider this...the paper and cardboard were attached first before any printing. Let us say that the cardboard and thin paper were glued together in an industrial setting and then printed later. This makes more sense to me just for the fact that there are ghost prints. The printed sheets most likely were laid on top of each other and some of the printing process transferred to the cardboard backing.

If the fronts were printed first and shipped anywhere you would not have ghost prints on the cardboard backing.

I still feel that T206 sheets were printed in NYC incl. back stamps, and then shipped to the various tobacco factories to be inserted.

As to factory sheets never being found....there are several explanations that could be plausible...the cards were completely distributed. Everything was used (again this is cost effective). Factory fire, aliens, still unfound, who knows.
I will leave t205s for a different discussion. Great topic Ted, love this kind of speculative stuff.

Joshua

PS These are just my opinions.
PPS Who printed the tobacco graphic boxes? Same company?

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Posted By: Joe D.

I don't believe these cards were printed on a coil and then adhered to proper backing... that is a lot of extra labor and expense for an item that is a freebee in a pack of cigarettes.

To comment on the orignal points raised...
1) Continuous vertical names is a common way to print things.... multiple up of the same unit - it is done all of the time.

2) Paper curls... especially if it is run through a printing press more than one time. So if a printing press was a '2 color' press, and they were printing 4-color, the sheet would have to run through the press twice for each side.

3) I would think it would be more likely to find an uncut coil if it existed, being that coils would be small in size as opposed to uncut sheets that would be rather large. So the lack of evidence would still point in the favor of full sheets. Not too many people would hold onto a huge sheet... but it would be easy to bring home a coil or throw one in your desk instead of using it.

Some other points....
...Ghost images are caused by what is called 'offset'. If you print a job and cut it too quickly (not allowing enough time for the sheets to dry) some of the ink from the top of one sheet will stick to the bottom of another sheet. So you get that 'ghost image'. The presence of ghost cards strengthens the argument of printing in full sheets.

...If you are printing the fronts / it is just as easy to print the backs at the same time... you have the press, you have the ink, you have the plates. Why separate the process and then add in an extra production operation (applying the backs)?

... I would think that if the T206s were put together from two separate pieces it would be quite obvious because many of them would look terrible (alignment and such) and by now a good number of them would start to separate. If adhesive is holding two pieces of paper together, that adhesive will break down over time.

just my opinion

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Posted By: JimB

Not to rehash an old issue, but I am presuming all coil theory advocates here reject the idea that the PSA 8 Wagner was cut off an uncut sheet as has been postulated.
JimB

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Posted By: RobertS

What about cards where you can see another back horizontally?

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Posted By: Joe D.

on the printing press.....

the first bunch of sheets you have are called the 'make ready sheets'.

often the two sides don't back up correctly and you have to adjust plates and such. its also possible that a sheet did not feed correctly.

Either way, a card like that was meant to be thrown in the garbage. At the time of printing there were probably many many cards like that (in number, not percentage).... which all found themselves in the trash.... so it is pretty cool that one of them slipped through and is now in your hands.


edit to say: and I guess it disproves the vertical coil theory. nice post.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JimB

I am curious.....here did you get that story on the Wagner being cut from a sheet ?

The story most of us have heard was that it was acquired from a collection in Long
Island, NY and that it originally had somewhat of an oversized "diamond cut". It was
subsequently trimmed to square it off. I, and many more (including current Forum
members), saw this card close up back in the mid-80's at the Willow Grove (PA) Show
when it was first being shopped around.

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Posted By: Joann

I think Robert S's post of the horizontally printed backs pretty much squashes the idea that fronts were printed vertically on strip coils with backs added later.

Wow - amazing how the collective input from people here can speak so directly to events nearly 100 years in the past. That's the great thing about this forum.

Now if we can only find someone that knows someone that's 100 years old so we can ask what the heck E98's, E101's and E102's were distributed with!

Joann

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Posted By: Art M.

Ted and others,
T206 cards were printed in sheets. The cards below have been pieced together as originally issued. They were hand cut from a sheet long ago. This is one of my T206 ongoing projects and this is just a small sample:

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Posted By: barrysloate

Since Art demonstrates that T206 were in fact printed in sheets- and I can't imagine you assembled those four cards individually, so when was that panel cut down?- it is possible that a full sheet would reveal vertical rows with the same player in each column. Also, Ted brought up an interesting point- that T206 Wagner strip may not be exactly what we think it is. The same way that all tobacco stores were given small counter cards to help advertise product, is it possible that the strip was never really intended for distribution? I know it is blank backed and assumed to be a proof, but compare it to Scott Brockelman's intersting T209 panels which we guess were advertising panels. And since the strip was personally delivered to Wagner himself, is it also possible it was made exclusively for him, since he was skeptical about having his picture used? Could it be that strip was sent to him in the hope he would finally agree to let the company use his image on their baseball cards?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

ART M.

What Tobacco brand is on the backs of these 4 cards of yours ?

I ask this, as it is important that these cards are actual production examples ?
Unlike the above noted 5-card (blank back) strip which includes Wagner.

This 4-card "strip", of cards from the 350-only Series, is the closest example we
have in this entire hobby that suggests that T206's were printed in sheet form.

Art....You are long-time T206 collector (probably longer than me) and you have
more insight into these cards than most; and, I fully appreciate this....but, I'm
sorry to say.....we have to do better than this.

Best regards, TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Art,
Thanks for posting the picture, as I promised you I never would. I have been trying to help Art add to this group and have at least one example that may go to the left of Beckley. The problem is, that all sheets are not laid out the same and some players are found beside different players on different sheets, making it next to impossible to know exactly what players are on what sheets. This may help explain why some players appear to be long or short printed in the set.

Art's cards appear to have been handcut from a sheet, and do have Sweet Caporal backs, not the normal blank ones. I also have several factory cut example which match exactly that are Piedmont 350's that I will post later.

Ted, while you and I agree quite a bit, I'm 100% with Art on this one, I believe the cards were printed in sheets of 18-24 with the same player appearing vertically with a different player on the Horizontal.

I believe all of the cards were printed(front and back) by the American Lithograph company in NY and then distributed to the factories for insertion. All indications also indicate that the American Lithograph Co was a subsidary of the ATC and produced millions of cards and coupons during this period. It's much easier and more cost effective to keep one factory cranking out the cards than it is to set up print runs at each factory just to print the backs. The same can be said for the packaging, packs, cartons and shipping containers were all produced in one or 2 strategic locations and then distributed to the factories for completion. And interestingly enough it is still being done that way today.
Here in Winston-Salem, NC Reynolds Tobacco company owns several subsidaries that do nothing, but produce the packaging for there products even though most of there cigarettes aren't made here anymore.

Now, I'm off to find scans.... Be well Brian

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Sorry for the poor scans, my scanner isn't playing nice with others today....

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Posted By: Scot Reader

There seems to be a strong case that the card fronts/backs were all printed in NYC. However, I have always wondered why the Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis artwork is unique to Factory 6 Ohio cards, that is, Polar Bear. If the cards were printed exclusively in NYC why wouldn't this artwork have been used on at least some of the Factory 25 Virginia and Factory 30 New York cards that appear in the 350 series (e.g. American Beauty, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, Tolstoi, etc.)? And, conversely, why wouldn't the Demmitt and O'Hara New York artwork have been used on at least some of the Factory 6 Ohio cards (e.g. Polar Bear)? I have always thought it at least possible that the reason the Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis artwork is unique to Factory 6 Ohio is that it was created by someone at Factory 6 in Ohio. Or perhaps somebody at Factory 6 Ohio "special ordered" the St. Louis artwork from NYC. I'm not suggesting it happened that way, only that it is possible.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Pieced back together cards hand cut 100 years ago!

Tuff collection to beat.

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Posted By: Joann

Between the pieced together strip posted above (WOW, by the way) and the intact horizontal strip that includes the Wagner ...

... is that enough to start thinking that some sheets had all portraits, and some either all poses or a mix? It just seems strange that I've seen 9 cards now that are somehow related to a neighboring piece on a sheet, and all 9 have been portraits.

Could be coincidence, but 9 is a lot. The probability could be figured out, but I don't know the ratio of portraits to non-portraits within the whole set.

Joann

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Joann

I just checked my set and there are 160 Portraits in the set of 524 cards.
That comes out to only 30% of the total cards. So, it is somewhat interesting
that all 9 cards on both these strips are the Portraits of players.

But, you must realize that the strip of 5 cards (Brown, Wagner, Bowerman, CYoung,
Kling) are from the 150 Series.

The strip of 4 cards that Art has displayed are from the 350-only Series.

Therefore, once you realize this, it is not really as unusual a probability as it
first appears, that all these cards are Portraits.



T-Rex TED

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Posted By: robert a

A couple thoughts concerning the backs being printed at the same time as the fronts.

What are the overstrikes for? Why did the American Lith. Co. strike a factory line and then overstrike a different factory over it?

Were they used to change the eventual destination before they left the factory?
Or, did they arrive at factory 649 and then receive the overstrike?





Another thought:
All five of these backs primarily display either brown or red ink (the very rare single overstrike in black being the exception). I've always thought that this factory (649) only had those two colors at their disposal since the same colors were used on both Hindu (which were created later and could've used any color) and Sweet Cap which remained red throughout the entire process.

Rob

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W.

You and I agree on most things and in especially regarding T206's.

I always felt that all these T206's were printed in NYC and distributed South,
or wherever the T-companies were to insert them into their respective T-packs.
My friend got me to thinking, though, when in the process of restoring a T206
in his collection, he showed me how easy it was to peel off an intact front of a
T206 from its cardboard. He is a real professional at this and I trust his opinion.

His theory on single player (vertical) strip coils, I must admit, I am very skeptical
about. However, it does explain the redundancy on names bottom and top on over-
sized cards. More importantly, it might explain why we have never seen an uncut
sheet of T206's. Many millions of T206's were produced and I find it very improbable
that no T206 sheet (of any form) has surfaced all these years.

Consider this.....uncut sheets exist of OBAKS, E93, GOUDEYS, PLAY BALLS, W560,
BOWMANS, LEAFS, TOPPS, 1959-1963 FLEER. Besides completing sets (in multiples),
I also collect uncut sheets. I have quite a few of these above listed sheets....some
are partial, but most are full sheets.. And, I have searched for sportscards sheets
since the early '80s. I'm most proud of my 1948-1954 Bowman collection of 14 sheets.

A much more significant collection of uncut sheets is owned by a major player in our
hobby and we have compared notes on this aspect of collecting. He has never seen a
T206 sheet, and believe me his uncut sheet collection is so extensive he could
wallpaper a school gymnasium with it.

So, Grandpa Ted cries out to all you guys....."WHERE ARE THE T206 UNCUT SHEETS" ?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
Here is some interesting information about the American Lithograph Co:

http://www.spoonercentral.com/knapp/ALCO.html



Just as I suspected, the Dukes did have something to do with it.... It turns out that the American Lithograph company was the same as the ATC a monopoly that controled 90% of the market.












Ted, I think there are no T206 sheets in existence because ALCO delivered a finished product to the factories. The fact that a few E card sets and a few Old Judge sheets survived is a miracle, not the norm. I can name a lot more sets with no uncut sheets before 1920 than you can with. And including Bowman and Topps sheets from the late 40's and early 50's is like comparing Texas Tommy's to Leaf. Be well Brian

PS I'm happy you have some nice uncut sheets, but I don't think you should expect to find any of T cards anytime soon, unless they are hand made.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

Great research on American Lithograph and very interesting.

Now, I was not in anyway comparing the availability of any post-War Gum Card sheets
with pre-War T or E-card sheets. I was simply making the point that I have, for
almost 30 years, actively sought out original uncut sportscard related material.

And, in this pursuit, I have not even had the slightest hint of any such material
from the T-card era. This I find very puzzling. Now, most of all the pre-War and
post-War sheets that I have acquired were available because........

(1) Printing employees, for whatever reasons, took these sheets home with them.
And, in the late '70s or early '80s when this hobby was becoming popular they, or
their children or grandchildren, brought this stuff out of the woodwork.

(2) Reject sheets due to printing errors, etc. were found in old warehouses.

(3) Or major printing firms were very proud of their products and invariably displayed
them professionally in their offices. Such was the case when I visited in 1981 with
George Moll (the real force behind the PlayBall and Bowman cards). Printers of all
stripes love to show-off their printed material and usually printed up many samples
to hand out to their customers.

And, I am sure this was true at Am. Litho.; and therefore, some of these display
pieces and samples should have survived. This kind of stuff always does.
I do not care if they are 50 years old....or 100 years old, when you have a product
such as T206 cards that were produced in the MILLIONS, you will inevitably find
original sheets (or sample panels) of them.

Unless there were none to begin with. And, I find this hard to believe.....but I am
beginning to think so.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Where are the coils? Certainly they too should have survived. This kind of stuff always does.
I do not care if they are 50 years old....or 100 years old, when you have a product
such as T206 cards that were produced in the MILLIONS, you will inevitably find
original coils.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It's a best assumption the cards were printed on sheets. There is only one piece of cardboard. The cardboard had a white smooth substance put on the front before printing to make for better printing. The white surface was probably put on by the cardboard maker not the printer. Lithography printing plates were reused for other job after the printing surface was cleaned off-- meaning, it would be unlikely for the plates to exist today. Old baseball printing plates for other types of printing exist, but they are usually for newspaper and magazine pictures, not baseball cards. Theoretically, a printing plate for a 1915 Sporting News or such could still exist. Pre-WWI uncut sheets for baseball cards are rare. I've never seen an uncut sheet of Allen & Ginters, T205s or T204s. That kind of stuff is tough. I beleive there are Obak tobacco uncut sheets. While the T206s sheets may have different is size and shape and player rotation, it's likely the 2 sets were printed similarly. The T206s are lithographs, and you can print lithographs using rotary presses. You can also rotary press on cardboard. However, I'm not sure how early offset lithography with rotary press was used.

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Posted By: Joann

I don't think a method can be dispelled solely because of the lack of surviving artifacts of that method - eg, cards could not have been made in coils because if they were, we would definitely see a coil somewhere. By that logic, T206's were made in horizontal strips no more than 5 players wide, because that is the largest piece that has survived.

I still don't think they were made in coils with 2 printing steps because the side-to-side back cuts above disprove it. But other physical processes (sheets, etc) need to be considered despite the lack of surviving remnants.

IMHO

Joann

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
There's no question that most of the great uncut sheets that survived to today, were taken home by the employees who created them. Unfortunately, most of the items that have surfaced from the 1900-17 era have been items meant for the trash bin. Perhaps there employers didn't care if they took home unfinished or miscut cards, but frowned upon entire sheets or boards that could be reused in some fashion from walking out the door. It may be as simple as size, it's much easier to slip a few cards into ones pocket than to slip a sheet of 24 cards under your shirt.

The fact is, we'll never know why we don't have any uncut material from this time, because I believe most of it came out during the late 70's early 90's when the card market was in it's heyday. It also happened to coincide with the deaths of many of the people who would have worked in these plants. I'm sure there will be more "Vintage finds" on the horizon, but expect most will be cards, and that the days of finding uncut sheets from this era are probably over.


We should also remember that the American Lithograph company's primary business was producing cigar Labels and posters, so they may not have considered the cards they produced for such a short period of time that important to the companies history. Simply finding information about the company has taken quite a bit of time and effort, and until recently we knew next to nothing about it's formation or it's major products. Besides Posters, and cigar labels, they also owned Truth magazine, and several other periodicals. The more we learn about ALCO, the more we'll hopefully learn about the cards......

Be well Brian

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Posted By: JimB

Frank Nagy had a T204 sheet that he cut up for individual cards. I remember an Obak sheet auctioned off about 7 or 8 years ago.
JimB

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Posted By: 73

These cards on T206 Museum are interesting too.




More cards on this page:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_47.html

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot Reader

This scan is interesting as it has two 350/460 cards (Conroy & McQuillan)
printed together with a 460-only (Marquard-side view) card.

Does this jive with your analysis of how the 460-only cards were produced ?

I guess my understanding of the 48 cards in the 460-only Series having been
a unique printing issue (at the end of the T206 production) is not correct ?

Please enlighten me on this.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Down at the Jersey shore I have an old friend who is in the printing business.
Next time we go to the beach I am going to see him and bring some T206's to
show him and ask a lot of questions. Perhaps, he can provide us some profes-
sional insight into how these "oldies but goodies" were printed.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The story I've heard is that former Cincinnati Reds owner Marge Schott owned
a desirable collection of antique tobacco labels. Her dad owned an old printing
company and was going to burn the company archives of labels. As a little kid,
Marge supposedly protested because she thought them so pretty and her dad let
her keep them.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Hey T-Rex,let me know next time youre down the shore. Maybe we can meet up and talk cards.I'll bring Kevin along,hes always good for conversation

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Posted By: Walter

Gentlemen,

I've been doing some research into this topic recently and here's a link to read what I've come up with so far. I think one of the most important conclusions I've reached is that it is not right to study one particular issue, such as T206, because I don't believe the ATC thought of issues separately. Cards of baseball players were issued simultaneously with flags, birds, fish and many other cards. This is the main reason I disagree with the coil theory. No other issues were printed in this way. Why would T206 be the only exception?

Anyway, here is the link. I would appreciate any thoughts. http://wpeters143.spaces.live.com/

Walt

Looking for 1936 Goudey, 1936 National Chicle and 1936 Cubs Diamond Matchbooks.


Looking for 1936 Goudey, 1936 National Chicle and 1936 Cubs Diamond Matchbooks.
http://spaces.msn.com/members/wpeters143/

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Posted By: PC

Did anyone else notice that the scan of the Sweet Caporal back that RobertS provided above shows not only horizontal and vertical back printing, but it also shows TWO DIFFERENT FACTORIES (Fact. 30 and Fact. 42). This demostrates that multiple factory backs were printed in the same run, which I think undermines the theory that the fronts were printed in coils and shipped to individual factories, where the factory-specific backs were then applied.

Obviously, the "floating" Fact. 42 on Robert's card above is an error, but it still shows that multiple factory designations were being printed at the same place at the same time.

I'd be interested to know what backs are on Art's reconstructed strip above.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Walt,
Thanks for your post. I went to your blog and learned some new things.
Scot