T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?

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Posted By: barry arnold

Since reading Scot Reader's work, I have found myself even more preoccupied with
the backs of my 206's. Tonight while thumbing through nearly 400 different 206's, I noted scores of piedmonts,sweet caporals; several
polar bears;15 or so Old Mill's (no browns);10 or so sovereign's; 10 or so
Tolstoi's; a handful of american beauty's 350,460; and a handful or so of
Cycle's 350 and 460; a handful of Hindu browns; one carolina brights; and
just 2 EPDG's.
Having just a couple of EPDG's surprised me a bit.
Any other folks have this experience?!
I made a conscious effort to get the Hindu's,Beauty's, and Brights.
Not so for the rest.

many thanks for the help

barry

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Posted By: Matthew

Always have heard the back is not one of the rare ones but I certainly agree with you Barry. They don't get much respect pricewise either though. I only have 1!

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Posted By: steve yawitz

As you know, Perfessor, I'm rather conscious of backs myself and was similarly surprised to find I have just three EPDG's out of my current 179 T206's. The breakdown:

American Beauty - 5
Cycle 350 - 6
Cycle 460 - 1
EPDG - 3
Hindu - 3
Old Mill - 11
Polar Bear - 10
Piedmont 150 - 25
Piedmont 350 - 54
Piedmont 350-460 - 8
Sweet Caporal 150 - 20
Sweet Caporal 350 - 17
Sweet Caporal 350-460 - 8
Sovereign 150 - 5
Sovereign 350 - 1
Tolstoi - 2

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Posted By: barry arnold

MANY thanks.
i wonder what this means about EPDG's.
steve, i notice that you have quite a few of some of the
rarer backs----is it because you made a conscious effort to
get these, and not so much the EPDG's.

even so, i wonder if we need to reevaluate the rarity of
EPDG.
by the way, buddy, Willetts brought an sgc 50---found
it on the sgc website today!!!

best

barry

p.s. you're right Matthew! it is the Lindaman i got from you ages ago!

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Iam not really sure if you are asking for some, email if you need a couple of Hof's- Lajoie and Tinker EPDG"S

Leon - I know my reply belongs in the b/s/t ,but I wasnt really selling them, just if he was intersted to email me.

that's all !

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

and had no more than 2-3 EDPG's in it...........

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Posted By: steve yawitz

Whew. Glad things worked out on the Willetts.

Anyway, I think EPDG backs are as difficult as our numbers suggest. However, I guess I haven't been as willing to pay a premium for them as I have for, say, AB or Hindu backs. I might have to change that thinking.

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Posted By: John S

Not a one out of a collection of 100 or so that includes Tolstoi, Cycle, and Hindu.

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Posted By: Richard

Out of a collection of about 30, which includes 1 brown Hindu, 2 Cycles, a Tolstoi, 3-4 Polar Bears, and a pile of Sweet Caps and Piedmonts, I have one EPDG -- of Vive Lindaman.

For the sake of this "survey" this might skew your numbers a bit, though, as I was actually seeking out the back to get an example for my collection.

Regards,

Richard.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Barry

I will follow up Richard's post with another tough T206 in the 150-only Series
and mine is Carl Lundgren (Cubs) with an EPDG back. It is a rare combination
to find the 10, or so, cards in this set that only exist in the 150 Series with
backs other than the usual Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, or Sovereign ones.

And, I surveyed my 600+ T206's and found only one other EPDG back and it is
the Rucker (portrait). So, here is a sample more consistent with yours.

The remaining tougher backs (BroadLeaf, Carolina Brights, Drum, Hindu, Lenox,
and Uzit) in my current collection outnumber the EPDG. But, that's because
I make an extra effort to acquire them: whereas, I do not regarding the EPDG.

Barry, thanx for bringing up this subject, as I always thought the EPDG backs
do not get their due respect in the T206 set.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: jay behrens

Do I sense a spike the peices of EPDG backs

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: Steve M.

One (1) out of 263. Murray (cap) SGC 40

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Out of my 520 or so I have 4. I did not go out of my way to buy any, but I know when I made an effort buy them I they commanded a small premium. I always thought they were underrated on the toughness list. Scott Reader has they the most definitive data that is not skewed by collecting habits.

There was an earlier thread about whetther this board can alter the prices realized, well a thread like this will definately make the prices for EPDG go up.

Lee

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I've always thought EPDG were a lot tougher also-- in my near-set of 518, I have 3. I tried to get one of each back, but otherwise I neither sought out not avoided unusual backs.

Full back breakdown:

Drum 0
Uzit 0
Lenox 1
Carolina Bright 1
Broadleaf 1
Hindu (red) 1
American Beauty 1
Hindu (brown) 2
EPDG 3
Cycle 6
Sovereign 6
Tolstoi 7
Polar Bear 14
Old Mill 21 (18 are Southern Leaguers)
Sweet Cap 191
Piedmont 263

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Posted By: peter ullman

like most of you...i have not really sought out or avoided this back...i have 1 for my backs type collection out of 100 or so t206's. it's a rudolph, toronto.

pete in mn

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Posted By: Tom Botticelli

Barry great question.

Over the last several years I have made a concerted efftort to pick up as many difficult backs as possible including EPDG backs (Out of about 500 I have: 15 EPDG, 17 Tolstoi, 103 Hindu's, 52 AB, 69 Cycles, 18 CB, 16 BL's), and I have found that they have been twice as difficult to collect as the AB or Hindu, but with that being said people tend to sell the more visible backs. Personally I think this back deserves a higher place on the difficulty list, but perhaps some people have been hoarding them. Hopefully this thread does not increase the value, so I can continue to collect them at a reasonable price. Just my two cents.

Tom

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Posted By: Dan Koochin

I have an EPDG Ty Cobb red portrait, and Bob Rhoades
right arm out. I was surprised that Ted Zanidakis mentioned
he has a Lundgren Cubs - I've never seen a 150 series
shortprint with an El Principe De Gales back and I've
been collecting T206 since 1980.
Would like to know if any other collectors have the difficult 9 shortprints with EPDG backs listed below.
Browne(Chi),Burch (Bat),Donlin (Fielding),Evers (Blue),Lundgren (Chi),Pattee,Pelty,Reulbach (Glove),
and Powers.

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Posted By: rob

In my collection of about 250 or so T206's, I have six with an EPDG back. Like many other collectors they have not been a priority, more incidental once I got one of them:

Jennings - both hands
Evers - port
Congalton
Oldring
Bliss
Zimmerman

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Out of 1746 cards:

American Beauty 194
Broadleaf 22
Carolina Brights 43
Drum 7
ELPD 33
Hindu 125
Lenox 10
Red Hindu 7
Pied 42's 28
Uzit 6
Tolstoi 16
I focus on all of the tough backs, but especially Hindu Slers and Carolina Brights. ELPD and Tolstoi's are not in my focus group, but they are tougher than people think.
Be well Brian

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Posted By: J Hull

I'll join the chorus.
Out of my 500 or so T206s, I probably have no more than 6-10 EPDG backs. I'll look through them later and see how many.
But according to my records, so far this year ~115 EPDG backs have been sold on eBay.
Over the same period, there have been about twice that many Old Mills (not counting the Southern Leaguer version) and about four times that many Polar Bears.
On the other hand, there have been (many) fewer Tolstoi, Cycle, American Beauty, and Hindu backs than the EPDGs.
I was surprised when I looked at the totals. I too would have thought they were tougher to find -- tougher than American Beauty anyway.

Brian, I don't know which is more impressive, 125 Hindus or 28 Factory 42s. Wow.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Dan K.

Scot Reader was surprised, too, when I informed him of my Lundgren (Cubs) with
an EPDG back.

Also, I have discussed with Scot that I have never observed Vive Lindaman with
a 350 Subjects back (and since 1981 I have seen thousands of T206 cards). This
card is probably the 10th SP in the 150-only Series.

And, it is interesting that Richard in his above post mentions he has a Lindaman
with an EPDG back.

I acquired my Lundgren (Cubs) with the EPDG back in 1984 when I was working on
my 1st T206 set and was trying to also acquire all the 15 basic Tobacco backs.
And, although I have had quite a number of Lundgren (Cubs) cards since, I have
never seen another with an EPDG back.

So, I have a question for you guys out there on this great Forum....check-out your
Vive Lindaman cards....does anyone have this card with a 350 Subjects back ?

I don't think they exist.....but, I can be wrong.

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Posted By: barry arnold

What a wealth of information.
Many,many thanks.
It does look like the data is pointing to more of a rarity for EPDG than
any of us suspected or expected.
Now i do wonder just what this means?
Have collectors not held it in high regard, for some reason?
Did the folks who bought these initially in the early part of the 20th century put them in their bicycle spokes (or whatever they had) like a lot
of my buddies did with their 'dalrymples' in the late 50's and early 60's.
Were fewer produced than we might have thought?
Are folks just keeping them, because we collectors don't want to pay any sort
of premium for them?
Admittedly, i realize these are no red hindu's---but now we know they are sure no commons either.

by the way, my lindaman is an EPDG, TRex.

also many thanks to the back collectors whose collections were even more
phenomenal than i had anticipated!!!! Congrats

barry

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Posted By: Jeff

Of my 400+ T206s I only have 2 EPDG backs - Gandil and Ewing.

Jeff

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Just one out of 100 cards...the Cy Young Bare Hand.

Frank

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Am I confused on the Lundgren? I have never seen it listed as a 150 only card. Although mine is a Pied 150, I believe that I have sold a Piedmont 350. I still have a scan of the front of the card in a SGC holder, it is dated 1910 Piedmont. From what I can tell SGC lists the 150 series 1909, the 350 series 1910, and the 460 series 1911.

By the way my Lindaman is a HINDU.

Lee

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Lindaman is one of seven 150-only candidates beyond the ones everybody knows about. Others include Doyle (Throwing), Ewing, Lundgren (Chicago), Schulte (Front View) and two others I can't think of right now. I wrote about these seven possible 150-only additions in my manuscript and nobody has yet indictated to me that they have any of them in 350--which makes me think these seven are indeed 150-only. Also, as Ted rightly notes, Lundgren (Chicago) seems to only be possible with Piedmont 150 and EPDG, e.g. not possible with any Sweet Caporal back. Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Lee B

If you had a Lundgren (Cubs) with a 350 back, you would have a T206 so unique
it would compare with the Plank (Piedmont 150) of which there is only one known.
I have seen where SGC has been inconsistent with their label dates; therefore, I
would caution using this as indication of card's back.

Are you possibly thinking of Lundgren's Kansas City card in the 350 Series ?

All the T206 publications (Heitman, Peavey, and Reader) agree the Lundgren (Cubs)
card exists only in the 150 Series.

Incidently, your Lindaman (Hindu) is really rare card.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I use to keep really good records of all my sales on ebay but the last couple of years I have not. maybe it's time to start again. I looked thru about 50 of my SGC T206s and they were as noted earlier, so that is my assumption.

I purchased the Lindaman just cause I needed it and paid about $25, a little premium for the HINDU.

Lee

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Posted By: robert a

Hi Guys,

Lee's right. Here's my Lundgren Chicago with a Piedmont 350 back.



By the way, Joe P. (who used to post here) wrote that he has a schulte front view with a 350 back as well. Search for "schulte front view" and you'll find the thread.

Robert

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Posted By: Bill

Brian,

Your collection of backs is very impressive. Here is my breakdown of backs:

Piedmont 150 - 68
Sovereign 150 - 18
SC 150 Fac. 25 - 6
SC 150 Fac. 30 - 11
SC 150 Fac. 649 - 13
American Beauty 350 Frame - 7
American Beauty 350 No Frame - 21
Broadleaf 350 - 2
Cycle 350 - 9
Piedmont 350 - 128
Sovereign 350 - 69
SC 350 Fac. 24 - 9
SC 350 Fac. 30 - 45
American Beauty 460 - 2
Cycle 460 - 4
Piedmont 350-460 Fac. 25 - 17
Piedmont 350-460 Fac. 42 - 1
Sovereign 460 - 17
SC 350-460 Fac. 25 - 1
SC 350-460 Fac. 30 - 5
SC 350-460 Fac. 42 - 1
SC 350-460 Fac. 42 OP - 6
Carolina Brights - 1
EPDG - 13
Hindu - 1
Lenox - 1
Old Mill - 8
Old Mill Southern - 35
Polar Bear - 12
Tolstoi - 9

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Posted By: Anonymous

about 450 T206, 1 EPDG - Donovan port.

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Posted By: RayPiskadlo

My back breakdown:

144 cards...

67 Piedmont
46 Sweet Caporal
10 Polar Bear
6 Old Mill
3 Tolstoi
3 Sovereign
3 American Beauty
1 EPDG: Steinfeldt (Batting), Cubbies
1 Cycle
1 Hindu
1 Carolina Brights
1 Broadleaf
1 Lenox

I don't search out backs I already own, so I'm sure I've passed on a bunch of Cycle and EPDG.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Of the 250 or so SGC graded T206 cards I own, three of them are EPDG. I have never put any effort into acquiring a card because of its back, except in two cases -- where I picked up a Hindu Joss Portrait and a nice Cycle Back. Otherwise, I have only been interested in fronts. I may have a couple more in my 270 or so ungraded T206 cards...

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

I have over 500 T206 and 22 with EPDG backs. HOFers and commons. A couple low grade examples in GAI holders were auctioned off on ebay just a day or so ago.

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Posted By: Bill K

I have about 30 T206's (90% of which are Portrait HOF'ers)

Out of that I have 2 EPDG (Breshanan and Griffith)

I didn't think they were that difficult of back, especially since I picked both of them up for under $80.

Images of both are at the web link listed below.

Great topic!

Bill

My personal collection - http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/

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Posted By: Anonymous

I have 1 EPDG. It has Cobb signed on the back. I doubt it is authentic, but does anyone know what Cobb's signature looks like?

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Posted By: Scott T

Of 478 different T206's, I have a whopping three EPDG's!

Ed Karger
Moose McCormick
Gabby Street (catching)

Scott

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Out of 510 T-206s, I have 9 EPDG backs (Bresnahan batting, Doughtery fielding, Herzog (NY Nat'l), Jennings yelling, Leach portrait, McAleese, Titus, Weimer, Willetts pitching). That's under 2% of my collection (roughly 1.76%).

My Lindaman and Lundgren Chicago are both Piedmont 150.

My back breakdown:

Piedmont 230 (one is 350-460 fact. 42)
Sweet Cap 138
Sovereign 28
Old Mill 28 (incl SLers)
Polar Bear 23
Tolstoi 16
Amer. Beauty 11
Cycle 10
EPDG 9
Hindu 7 (incl SLers, no red hindus)
Carolina Brights 3
Broadleaf 3
Drum 2 (Konetchy fielding low ball, Pfeister pitching)
Lenox 1 (Marquard pitching)
Uzit 1 (Leach fielding)

I made an effort to collect at least one of each back type. I've bought most of my mid-level back types at common prices (or small premium, say a buck or two in most cases - I'm a low grade collector).

Mike (18colt)

PS: This is not meant to hijack the thread, but speaking of Tolstoi, would anyone know how rare a Tolstoi reverse is in the T-218 set (I know, not baseball, but pre-war)? Thanks.

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Posted By: Chuck

I have 5 EPDG out of a collection of 649 unique front/back T206. Most were aquired by trade or in lots......... I'd guess that I've bought fewer than a dozen single cards. As a result I'm less weighted in HOF and SL than normal.

My Lundgren-Chicago is a P350.

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Posted By: Dan Koochin

From the information above I think its safe to say
Ludgren Chi is not a 150 series only card. That gets
me back to my thoughts that EPDG is a 350 series back.
The other eight 150 series only cards most likely cannot
have the EPDG or Old Mill backs.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Backtofinal4, send me a scan of the cobb signature on the back of your card. I have a handwritten letter and a bank check I can compare the signature to. email MILFORD97@AOL.COM

joe

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here's how my current 600+ cards breakdown as a function of their backs:

DRUM -- (Moeller)
Red HINDU -- (Donlin-bat)
UZIT -- (Schaefer-Wash, Wiltse-cap)
BROAD LEAF -- (Grimshaw, Malarkey, McGinley)
CAROLINA BRIGHTS -- (Clymer)
LENOX -- (Chance-Yellow)
HINDU -- (Donovan-Port, SL = Breitenstein, Guiheen, Hooker, Howard, LaFitte)
PIEDMONT 460/42 -- (Dougherty-arm up, Jordan-batting)
CYCLE 460 -- (Jennings-dance, Murray-cap)
CYCLE 350 -- (Matthewson-dk cap, O'Brien, LaPorte, Downey-fldg)
AM BEAUTY 460 -- (Devore, Leach-cap, Wheat)
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 -- (Overall-yel sky, Quillen)
El PRINCIPE de GALES -- (Lundgren-Cubs, Rucker-port)
TOLSTOI -- (Barger, Needham)
SWEET CAPORAL 460/25 -- (Bell-fol thru, Murphy-bat, O'Leary-hds knees)
OLD MILL (So Lge) -- (28 cards)
OLD MILL (asst.) -- (7 cards)
POLAR BEAR -- (Demmitt-St Louis, O'Hara-St Louis, Chase-trophy, Theilman)
SOVEREIGN 460 -- (12 cards)
SOVEREIGN 350 -- (14 cards)
SOVEREIGN 150 -- (HORIZ - Mullin, Pattee & Powell; Keeler-port)
SWEET CAPORAL - (104 cards)

The following comprise my partially complete PIEDMONT-only set.

PIEDMONT 460 --- ( 48 cards)
PIEDMONT 350 --- (203 cards)
PIEDMONT 150 --- (153 cards)

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Posted By: barry arnold

great collection, trex!
Dan K., the thinking about the EPDG being 350 only is very interesting.
please run through the arguments for me.

best,

barry

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Posted By: ockday

Out of about 600 t206's, I only have 3 EPDG..Flanagan, Lumley and Spade.
Lindaman and Lundgren Chi are both Piedmont 150
Alan

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
Many of us T206 "Nuts" believe that EPDG and Old Mill's were not distributed in the first series, but shortly thereafter. To date I have never seen any of the 9 "150 series only" cards with an Old Mill or EPDG back. Most show up with Piedmont backs, and most, if not all have been seen with Sovereign, Hindu, and Sweet Cap backs. Hope that helps Brian

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Posted By: barry arnold

many thanks, brian.
do you think this later than the 150's 'grand opening' explains the rarity of
the EPDG?
any explanation for why it has gotten so little
'acclaim' for its rarity?
obviously, it's no lenox or uzit but it sure is rarer than we thought.
thanks for the help, brian.
by the way, i heard you were a tarhill.
even though i've been a floridian for many, many years, i was born in N.C.
and went to Davidson College, so tarhill is in my blood---as well as these
206's.

best

barry

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Posted By: Dan Koochin

For accuracy my list of the nine 150 series shortprints
should have read;
Browne(Chi),M. Brown (Cubs), Burch (Bat),Donlin (Fielding),
Evers (Blue),Pattee,Pelty,Powers, Reulbach (Glove).

I've corresponded with collectors who have tried to
do all nine with all the back variations. They cannot
find EPDG or Old Mill, it was reasoned they do not
exist in 150 series. The first brands were Piedmont
Sweet Cap, Sovereign, and Hindu.

I've emailed Bill Heitmann author of the T206 Monster,
some time ago.
He did not confirm the existence of the 9 with EPDG or
Old Mill backs. As I recall, when he checked, his were
Hindu backs.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W

I was really surprised to hear of a Lundgren (Cubs) with a P350 back. I have
hoarded several of these cards since the early '80s (about a dozen of them).
I have only seen this card with a 150 Subjects back (usually P150) and the
El Principe de Gales one that I have had for over 20 years.

Now, the other player that I have never seen other than a "150" is Vive
Lindaman. And, at least two posters in this Thread have EPDG Lindaman backs
and one an even tougher HINDU back.

You have seen many, many T206's and I ask you.....have you ever seen a "350"
Lindaman ?

Heitman, Peavey and Reader all document that EPDG and HINDU backs were in
the 150-Series. And, I agree with you and Scot that OLD MILL (asst.) backs
were not printed on the original 150-Series cards.

In fact, Scot Reader suggests that the following could also be 150-only cards....

Ames (front)....Doyle (throw)....Ewing....Tom Jones (St. Louis)....Lindaman....
Lundgren (Cubs)....Schulte (Cubs).

Ok, guys check-out your T206's and let's see if we can confirm that these cards
are indeed 150-only....or, do any of you have them with "350" backs ?

I will start....my Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Jones and my 2 - Lindamans have P150
backs. All my Lundgrens have P150 backs, except the one EPDG back. And, I
have 5 - Schulte cards, 4 are P150 and 1 is a SC150.

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Posted By: barry arnold

hi trex.

this stuff is fascinating!

all mine are 150's except my Lindaman is EPDG.

i'm eager to hear from the rest of the crowd.

best,

herbivore barry

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Schulte, & Lundgren Pied 150.

I also have Ewing EPDG and a Lindaman Hindu.

I will add the Jones as soon as I can find it.

Lee