W517 unnumbered variations- So now there are two?

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I was under the impression that only Paul Waner had an unnumbered variation in this set, but in the current Mastro auction, lot# 55, There is an unnumbered Waner AND Vance. I've seen a handful of the Waner's since I started collecting this issue, but never a Vance. Is anyone aware of any others besides these two?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I have Waner listed on a non-Champion Draw strip with Hack Wilson & Hornsby. I have no record of Vance nor anyone else reported with no number.

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Posted By: Seth B.

Where is everyone getting into the Mastro August auction? Is there a link I'm missing on their webpage?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I can confirm that there are 2 known players produced in versions both with and without the #'s. Those being the Vance and Waner. I have owned both cards and still own a Waner. Other than the 2 aforementioned players I am not aware of anybody else in the set that was produced that way.


-Rhett

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Posted By: Eric B

Lot #55 auction is closed. That was from June.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

To me, the question never is "how old is the information". The question is "how new is the information to you, Gil"

And sheesh, June is only one month in the past - Im still trying to assimilate knowledge which is more than a decade old to some.

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Posted By: Jeff J

I have Waner and Vance together on the same strip, tho mine are both numbered.

Knowing that they appeared in the same strip, maybe being both issued without numbers was an oversite in the print and possibly rare?

Gil, what did you mean that you have a Non-Champion draw. I thought W-517 issue was originally called Champion Draw? Please help me know what you mean,

Jeff J

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Posted By: Brad Green

What is the third card on the strip with Vance and Waner? Maybe it also exists without a number.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jeff J:

My statement reflects my conjecture regarding this set.

Specifically, this set was manufactured with a fixed card production matrix for the Champion Draw marketplace. That is, every (of 6) incidents of cards found with the Champion Draw box which I have investigated, always result in the same strip configurations - the same three players in the same positions on the 3 card strip.

Other arrangements of these cards on strips are encountered routinely. One (my) interpretation of this is that alternate printers with different printing plate set ups were responsible for the different player line ups on the original sheets; and therefore the strips. I speculate from this that there was marketplaces for this product in addition to the Champion Draw application.

Information on this subject is rather sketchy. Some collectors believe that w-517s were not only issued in strips. There is some evidence that they were also released as single cards.

I am very receptive to additional information, supposition, insight, and hypothesis on this set.

Edited to add: One occurance of the Waner without a number is on a three card strip including Hack Wilson and Rogers Hornsby. This may be the only incidence of the numberless Waner, or maybe not.

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Posted By: Jeff J

Gil, I am not sure. I did not know there was any evidence of any singles issued, also was not aware that these were issued as anything but Champion Draw cards. I cannot confirm this either way. I do know I have always loved these cards with their many HOF cards and real photos, not art.

I have seen other strips which have different configurations than mine as I have a full un-cut set. I do not know why or how this was done however.

Let's keep hunting for answers.

Jeff J

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jeff: I too do not know that there were applications for the w517 set other than Champion Draw. I believe that I deliberately preceeded all of my statements with the characterization that they are solely my personal conjecture.

I am otherwise at a loss to explain why strips would be manufactured with the players in different positions on each strip. That is, other than different printers, plate sets and likely different applications, or perhaps solely different geographical markets. But until a complete Champion Draw boxed set turns up with a card layout different from yours, it is all supposition.

And as far as individually issued cards. I solely indicated that some evidence exists. I do point out the difference between evidence and proof.

Here is one for you Jeff: Do you note that green cards are often shorter than their sepia counterparts? (That would be dash line to dash line) If you find this to be true, let me know and I will tell you why. If you do not find this true, then there is no need. - No. - I will tell you anyway - then if Im wrong: oh well, it will be the fourth time (that time in '61 don't count).

The green strips sometimes need the space for the STRIKE OUT or other notations on the card strip. Sepia strips never contain this notation.

I don't know that the preceeding is true, but it is reported by two independent collectors. Can you verify?

A very interesting set, one of my favorites. I wish I knew something useful about it.

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Posted By: Jeff J

Gil, I have measured the distance between the dotted lines on my green strips and my sepia strips. They are identical. They are alos the same poses in the same order per strip.

I guess your question goes un answered until we get two strips (green and sepia) containing the same player in different positions, then see if there is a difference.

This set with all it's HOFamers is still a puzzle. Can anyone else help?

Jeff J

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jeff, Im sorry that I wasn't clear. What I should have said was the notations used for the legends of the game (such as "strike out") on some green strips, necessitate a decrease in the dash to dash distance, since the strip length is not a variable.

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Posted By: Paul

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Champion Draw"?

Also, why do some strips have "strike out" or some other play at the top, while others don't?

Thanks.

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Posted By: Jeff J

Gil, Sorry I misunderstood. I do not have any with the indicators at the top but I
know what you mean. Someone else can help.
Paul, Champion Draw was the name of the game which was played by the kids who could buy a strip of 3 W517 cards in 1931.(I think for a penny?!) They came in a simple stand-up cardboard box which had Champion Draw on it. There were several levels to the game and if you drew a strip with a certain color at the bottom you got a prize.

Jeff J

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Posted By: fkw

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

That is a keeper, Frank.

You see - if we were 10 years old and I was explaining this Champion Draw stuff to you, I'd tell you that we don't risk flipping that card, because we need it for the Legends of the Game game which we play.

And when you put in your penny, you draw a strip of three cards, three cards for a penny! But you have to rip them apart yourself. But nobody cares how good you rip them (except in maybe 50 or 100 years, some old guys who ain't even born yet might care how neat and clean these cards are. And they could even set up whole companies to tell them how good a ripper you are. Yeah, right)

But not only do you get three cards for a penny, some are also marked with ink. Those with red ink, you show to the storekeeper and get a large candy bar. Those with green ink, same thing, but you only get a regular size candy bar.

But not only that. You see? All of the cards are the same color, but eventually that color changes drastically when this color runs out. If you are the first to get a new color strip - you show it to the storekeeper and he will give you a brand new baseball !!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

As pointed out in an earlier post by Adam Baxter, this set was described in an article written by Rex Coile and published in Trader Speaks in 1978. In that article, Rex identifies a candy manufacturer named "Champion" which was in business during the early 1930s.

Although a clear correlation between the Champion candy and Champion Draw was not achieved, some think that the candy manufacturer is the source of the name. And the term Champion Draw describes the process of drawing the strip from the despensing device - with one of the objectives to get a Champion bar.

It may be true that the machine was called the Champion Draw dispensing unit, or something near to that. It is true that the cards were called Champion Draw. Reportedly this is evidenced by the boxes which contained the cards.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here is an example of a W517 with the color strip on back. In the same collection I found this one in I found a couple with green stripes, but this is the only one I kept. As you can see it is always found on the bottom card in the strip of 3.



I have never seen a strip with both the color band and wording at top on the same strip of 3, so theorizing I would venture to say that there mey have been 2 similar style games, one in which you won a prize for a colored strip on back, while another printing likely had a similar contest depending on what was said at the top rather than the back bottom. As such nearly all cards found with writing at top are "Strike Outs" so you likely got some prize for "Single, "Home Run", etc. Again, this last part is merely a theory.

-Rhett

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

That is very interesting Rhett. In part because Goose Goslin has always been found in the top position in the standard Champion Draw configuration.

But your example clearly indicates a divergence from the standard printing set up.

How do you suppose this can be? Specifically, why would a printer change the order in which the cards were printed? And how difficult is this to do?

Any thoughts?

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Posted By: Paul

All right. I'll show my ignorance again. What's so special about Frank's card?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Paul, when a guy fails to explain himself properly, he creates ignorance regarding the point he is trying to get across. Please allow me to be less lazy and set some groundwork.

w517 cards which were used in the Champion Draw application cited above, when found with the Champion Draw box, always (in my experience) contained strips with identical (to each other) positioning of the players cards on each strip.

For example the following strips are associated with Champion Draw t-b: 45/51/16, 46/6/44, 47/4/30, etc.

Looking at the last one: 47/4/30 - this indicates that card #47 is in the top position on the Champion Draw strip. However, Rhett's card is a bottom position Goslin. (I betcha those ten year olds from the candy store are rolling with laughter around now) What this means to me is this: previously there was no divergence from the standard Champion Draw sheet printing matrix. Now there is.

All other incidences of printing set up differences previously encountered had been dismissed as "well, maybe there was an application for these cards other than Champion Draw". But Rhett's card is a Champion Draw card, evidenced by the red stripe on the back.

So what? You might ask. Well, Im a bit of a nut, for one. But to me, I don't believe that a printer once set up to produce sheets of cards in a specific order would voluntarilly change that set up. Therefore, I conclude that Rhett's card was produced by a different printer, with a different set up, producing cards for the Champion Draw application.

So what? You might ask. Well, if that second printer produced Rhett's card, he probably produced others as well. Maybe he even produced all others - and there are a lot of strips which do not match the Champion Draw/printer #1 matrix. Possibly in conjunction with other printers with different sheet set ups.

So what? You might ask. Well, if all w517s were produced for a single end product application, then those who believe that the set should be named Champion Draw, and should be classified as an e-card; have a new significant piece of ammunition in their arsenal. I was of the school that the different w517 sheet set ups were attributable to different printers producing cards for applications other than Champion Draw. And while I am not abandoning that posture, my case has been severely weakened. But I really don't care - I have no vested interest either way.

Gee, I hope this rambling is clear. If not, please let me know.

Edited to add: Well I guess that I answered a question which you did not ask. You were interested in Frank's card, not Rhett's.

There is no clear definition which I am aware of which specifies exactly what the baseball related terms which appear on some cards actually refer to. However, one source has indicated that these cards were used to play a game called "Legends of the Game". How the game was played and whether this information is correct - I do not know.

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Posted By: Paul

Wow. That's some explanation. Thanks.

From what you said, it sounds like every known uncut strip has some baseball play at the top. Is that correct? I don't know why, but I had been under the impression that most strips had nothing at the top.

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Posted By: Jeff J

Paul, No none of my strips have any baseball notation at the top and I have an entire un-cut set. I do not know anything about how the baseball game with notations at the top was played nor how the cards MAY have differed from those without baseball terms at top.

Jeff J

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

It has been my impression that it was like winning something if a kid would draw a strip with a game play notation on the top of it.