T205 Wilhelm Variations question

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff

Greetings:
Out of curiosity, I went to PSA's pop report for t205s to see which card had the fewest submissions, including variations. The one that was graded the least according to their report was the Irvin Wilhelm "suffe ed" in 18th line. (Fewer even than Hoblitzel no stats, but that's real misleading i'm sure.) I don't know a ton about t205s, but i'd heard it both ways....that the "suffered" is tougher AND that the "suffe ed" is tougher. Which is it? Is the pop report right? I have the "suffe ed" and would love to know. Thanks.

-Jeff

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Jeff- Out of the last 30 Wilhelms I have seen, 29 had the "suffe-ed" line, only one was correct.
Bob

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Wow. thanks for the info. strange that the psa pop info implies just the opposite. thanks again.

[Archive]

Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

PSA (and everyone else for that matter) only recognized the variation recently so all the Wilhelm cards graded until maybe a year ago (a guess) were simpy listed as Wilhelms (including the error cards).

The truth from everyone I've ever heard discuss it since the variation was recngized is that the correct card is far more scarce -- as Bob's email suggests.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby

In the past year (12) T205 Willhelms have sold in auctions with

9 cards with the "r"
3 card with out the "r"

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Bobby- I'm sure I may have missed some but I have seen almost all of the ones on ebay and instead of 3-1 in favor of the suffered as opposed to suffe-ed, my tally shows almost over 20-1 suffe-ed to suffered. Where are you getting your info? I went to the National last year looking for the suffered variation for a friend and didn't find a single one but lots of suffe-ed ones.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby

I have been tracking every auction for cards graded by SGC, GAI and PSA 1886-1949 for almost the past year on Ebay and major auction houses. I started all the 50's about a month ago.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

So there seems to be some debate i guess. looking at bobby's numbers, is it possible that the suffered has outsold the "suffe ed" 3 to 1 strictly because it is more rare. maybe, that info having come out fairly recently, the suffered are selling more just because sellers are jumping to sell them as buyers are looking to buy.???
Also, what is esp perplexing about PSA's pop report is that it DOES specifically distinguish between the two spellings. in other words, when it was earlier said that all wilhelms were lumped together up until recently, which is why the "suffe ed" pop is so low, i would've assumed there'd be a column for just wilhelm and one for suffe ed or something. instead, there is no normal wilhelm column. There is a specific "suffered" column and a "suffe ed" column, with the "suffered" being about 3 to 1 ratio, as bobby had suggested. is it possible that they took all previously graded wilhelms and just put these in the suffered category?? I mean, how did they know which previously graded copies were which? Did they just guess and totally change their data?? i don't get what they're doing there.....unless they called everyone who had one graded before the distinction was made, asked what thier backs said, and adjusted their report accordingly, how do they know how many of each have been graded? i don't get it.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Okay...I know Shawn will correct me if I get this wrong so here goes...

Both are rare...

The Wilhelm with the suffered comes with the Hassan fact. 30 back.
The Wilhelm with the suffe ed comes with the Piedmont fact. 25 back.

I too have been tracking auctions (as has Shawn) and I have seen nearly twice as many suffered as suffe ed backs. I have been tracking this since it was first brought to my attention.

Now, this still does not mean one is rarer than the other but I feel that the suffe ed is rarer.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: Shawn Adkins

Wow, I was shocked to see TWO active T205 threads this afternoon!

As Joshua mentioned, we collect auction data of all shapes and sizes. In addition to that public data, I also have information from many other collectors as to the cards that reside in their collections.

--Thanks to everyone who has shared their information with me --

The back information Josh provided is absolutely correct unless there are some rare backs that don't show up very often, Broadleaf/Hindu/Drum, as those may never be accurately documented for obvious reasons. Each card has only one back and this is key information when shopping for either version without a back scan. SGC and GAI have the brand listed on the flip and that's all you need to determine which one is which. Why I'm sharing this is beyond me as I still need upgrades for both of mine.

Taking everything into account for this reponse, my data shows that the correct card has been offered for sale or documented in a collection 2 - 3 times less than it's counterpart. Even though a few of the "suffered" variety have sold recently through various venues, it's still far behind the "suffe ed" version in terms of number of copies documented. The last time I checked the SGC pop report, it showed a 3 to 1 ratio (15 - 5) with the correct version having only 5 graded copies back in early Apr.

My personal opinion is that both cards are among the 10 toughest cards in the set, but their actual placement on that list will be reserved for a future post (or publication). This is based on my collection of over 12,000 documented T205s that I currently have in my database.

Cheap plug -- anyone who has not shared information about their set with me can send an email for an Excel template that makes that documentation very easy. <G> The more data I have the more accurate the reports will become. Back information and back scans are always helpful.

Both of the Wilhelm cards are tough and often remain on wantlists for an extended period of time. The "suffered" version was one of the last five cards achieved in my master set, Thanks again Art!

Shawn