Cuban "Polar" Cards

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Posted By: Paul

There were several Cuban cards on ebay today that say "Polar" on the back. Here is one example. Do any of you know anything about these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5236894391&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&rd=1

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Posted By: Mark Tylicki

...and would love to hear more about these too.

Ryan - Could you provide us with more info?

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MY COLLECTION: http://www.rustywilly.com/MYCOLLECTION.htm

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Posted By: Rick

I wonder if they are glossy?

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I will do a lengthy post with my opinion about these later in the day. They do not seem legit to me. I'll explain in detail later.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Marc S.

Any chance that these could have originated from Venezuela, and not Cuba...?

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

As promised, here is my take on the “Polar” cards.

But first, I want to be clear that this is only my opinion. I am still open to the possibility of this being a legitimate issue, however, I do not believe it is. I have not held one of these in my hands so I cannot be 100% certain either way. Also, I am in no way making any kind of statement about the ebay seller as I believe they genuinely believe these to be authentic cards. Additionally, the seller is only selling them for someone else. I know the seller personally and am hoping they do not get bombarded with e-mails about how they’re selling fake cards or about me saying anything negative about them. I’ve been in contact with the seller and heard the reason why they feel the cards are real. 've also said I think they are not. We simply disagree. Anyone who won one of the auctions should still honor their bid whether or not they have doubts about authenticity after reading this. With that said, here are a few of the reasons I don’t think they’re real:

A. No one’s ever seen them before. This, by itself, means nothing. There are definitely still undiscovered issues that surface from time to time and there are some cards tucked away in collections that almost no one knows about. But when they do surface, they are generally cards issued by an unknown issuer, or a very small business. Not by one of the largest breweries of the era (in Cuba) who also produced many different baseball booklets, schedules, etc. “Polar” also advertised in all the baseball publications and even had signs inside the stadiums. They were huge. They SHOULD have issued baseball cards. If they had produced any cards, they would have produced a ton of them. It would probably have been the most common Cuban baseball card issue of the pre-Castro era. They wouldn’t trickle out one by one in 2005.

B. The look is not right. They do not fit the era in which they are alleged to have been produced. The golden age of baseball card production in Cuba took place in the 1920’s. Primarily between 1923 and 1927. Most of the baseball cards produced during this time were photographic, that is, glossy cards printed on thin photographic paper. The “Polar” cards would have been much more believable if they were listed with a 1920’s issue date, instead of the 1950’s, and didn’t include later players like Monte Irvin. Nothing issued past 1930 is remotely similar to those. In fact, I can only think of two post-1930 issues (1946-47 Campo Alegre and 1949-50 Ansco) that were photographic, and one of those was produced by a photographic film company to advertise their rolls of film. The backs look to have been hand-stamped instead of printed on. Every fake Cuban card I have seen shares this trait. The excess scrapbook paper stuck to some of the cards is a nice touch to make them look even more legitimate. “How could they be fake, they’re not mint! They were even glued into an album like most other Cuban cards. They MUST be real!”

C. Player selection. Now this makes no sense at all, especially when you factor in the team each one is pictured on. On ebay were 6 cards. I’ll go over each one:

~ Jimmy Foxx ~
Major Leagues: 1925-45.
Nothing too unusual here. It would be easy enough to believe they would produce a set that contained cards of some of the all-time great Major Leaguers, similar to the 1946-47 Montiel set.

~ Monte Irvin ~
Negro Leagues: 1937-48.
Cuban League: 1947-49.
Major Leagues: 1949-56.
Okay, this one is interesting. Irvin was a star in Cuba, and every other country he played in. Although he only played 2 seasons in Cuba (47-48 & 48-49) he led the league in home runs in one of them helping his Almendares team win the championship. There are MANY images of Irvin in Cuba. During the 1948-49 season there were pictures of him in nearly every sports magazine including several with him on the cover. This is BEFORE he ever played a single game in the Majors for the Giants. So why in the world is he pictured in a Giants uniform? They couldn’t find a single card of him playing in the country these cards are supposed to have been produced in? No way. But maybe they intended to market these cards in the United States, which would also explain adding Foxx and having other Americans in the set. No. This isn’t true either as can easily be seen by the players on the other cards. But the real giveaway about the Irvin is this: Of everything I have ever read or seen that was produced in Cuba during the late 1940’s that featured Monte Irvin or mentioned his name, I have never seen anything that didn’t spell his name “Irving” with a “g” on the end. Covers of magazines, captions of photos, listings in programs and rosters; always “Irving.” With one exception: his only Cuban baseball card (1948-49 El Indio) spells it “Yrving.” They never forgot the “g”.

~ Jacinto Calvo ~
Cuban League: 1913-27
Major Leagues: 1913, 1920
Had they only listed Cuban players and said the cards were from the 1920’s, these cards would have been much more plausible. A Cuban issue featuring some of the greats of the Cuban League. Makes sense. Calvo is in the Cuban HOF and was one of the first Cubans in the Majors shortly after Almeida and Marsans debuted in 1911. Yes, yes, Bellan and Nava, I know, I know. But on his “Polar” card, Calvo is pictured on the Washington Senators. They couldn’t find an image of him in Cuba?

~ Manuel Cueto ~
Cuban League: 1912-33
Major Leagues: 1914-19
Another Cuban HOFer. He’s pictured as a member of the Cincinnati Reds.

~ Emilio Palmero ~
Cuban League: 1913-29
Major Leagues: 1915-16, 1921, 1926, 1928
Another Cuban HOFer. Shown playing for the New York Giants. So we have 3 Cuban HOFers, but all are pictured with Major League teams. This seems unlikely that they would produce Cuban cards of Cuban players but only show them playing for Major League teams, but it’s still within the realm of possibility. But then how do we explain the last card:

~ Antonio Susine (Susini) ~
Cuban League: 1918-1920
Negro Leagues: 1921
Here is a player who never played in the Majors, had a cup of coffee in the Negro Leagues, and in his native country had a diamond career that consisted of pitching in 2 games in the 1918-19 season (going 0-1) and taking 8 at-bats in the 1919-20 season (career average .125) so it is only natural that he would have a baseball card produced in a set that so far contains only HOFers. Personally, I do not believe that picture is actually him, but I have no idea what he looks like. I do know that the Cuban Stars uniform he is wearing is similar to those worn in the late 1920’s and early 1930’s. What, exactly, would be the reason to make a card of a Cuban player but on an American Negro League team? But here's the best part: As bad as Antonio Susini was as a player, he still managed to leave his mark on the game. During an non-league game in January of 1922 he got into a fight with a teammate, Julio Leblanc. Although Susini couldn’t seem to hit a baseball with a bat, he did manage to hit Leblanc’s head with one, fracturing his skull and killing him. He was arrested immediately and served 13 years in prison. Yes, I’m sure the company who made “Polar” beer felt that their logo on a picture of a hack baseball player and convicted murderer would be an ideal way to advertise their product. “If the skull gets hit, the card must be legit.”

Or maybe….

these images were all ones that were available and easy to reproduce with decent picture quality, as opposed to using an image of Irvin from a magazine, for example. The size of the actual photo was likely an issue as well. Remember, these “cards” are photos of photos. The clearer the original, the clearer the “card.” I believe I know exactly how these were made, although I’d rather not go into too much detail or give anyone any ideas. Something worth noting is the way they cut out long rectangular strips of paper and wrote each player’s name on it. Then they laid that on top of the photo, on top of a black background, laid a cut-out “Polar” logo on top of that, and were well on their way. That part they could have done better. Please keep in mind that all of this is merely speculation on my part and everything I’ve written is only my opinion.

It is also my opinion that this group on ebay was only meant to introduce us to this new and rare issue. Look for more cards to surface, probably always in small groups. After we’ve seen 3 or 4 groups of different players, enough to have us convinced that it’s probably a real issue, then look for the big guns. If there’s a Jimmy Foxx, there must be a Babe Ruth, right? If there’s a Manuel Cueto, there must be a Martin Dihigo, right? If there’s an Antonio Susini, there must be an O.J. Simpson, right? If there’s a Monte Irvin, how about a Cool Papa Bell or Buck Leonard? When cards of the top level Negro Leaguers surface, especially HOFers who have no other cards like Bell or Leonard, this is where the big dollars come in and it starts to make sense why someone would go to all that trouble. Also, look for more Cuban Stars players because there are a number of players that have individual photos of them wearing the same uniform that I have seen. The images would have been perfect for cards. Unfortunately, no cards like this exist.

-Ryan

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Posted By: leon

Are you related to Hal? Nice job of making a case....I have no clue about this issue but I love reading well thought out arguments on the board. Yours is excellent......regards

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree. Nice points, Ryan!!

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Posted By: Alan

Ryan --

Thank you for that fantastic explanation !!! I wish I had the knowledge with my interests as you do with yours.

Alan

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Posted By: Paul

“If the skull gets hit, the card must be legit.”


I love it.

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Posted By: J Levine

More showed up on ebay this afternoon...they honestly do not look legit to me because of the add on the front...it is all different sizes and places on the cards. Just does not look correct.

Joshua

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Posted By: rick

Good write up.

thanks a lot

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Posted By: tobacco-r-us

Adolfo Luque would have liked to have tossed you up in the air, and caught you. (inside joke between Ryan and I)

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well done, Ryan!!! THAT is why it is worthwhile to check out this site. I only have one old Cuban card, don't know much about them. But now, don't we all know a bit more! Thank you!!!!

Frank.

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Posted By: RC Mckenzie

Maybe it was some sort of test issue that never entered the market.

Seems like an awful lot of trouble, with no insurance of reward, to hatch a plan to deceive a relatively small niche market.

I do agree that if a Cool Papa Bell trickles out at the end of the month, I'd be more suspicious.

I'll probably bid on one in this current group just to see what they look like. GL

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Posted By: scgaynor

"Seems like an awful lot of trouble, with no insurance of reward, to hatch a plan to deceive a relatively small niche market."

It would not be the first time it has happened with Cuban cards. There are a ton of fake ones out there, but to the best of my knowledge, they pretty much all come from the same source.


Scott

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Posted By: sagard

I know not everybody likes grading here and that the companies make mistakes, but this is the perfect reason for their existance.

If those cards are real the seller should be able to convince either PSA/SGC/GAI of that fact and at that point I don't think they would be struggling to sell them at all.

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Posted By: William Brumbach

Doesn't anyone else find it a bit odd that the seller doesn't list the player names in the auction titles? They have player names in their other auctions as well as the actors and actresses on the photographs. If you had a Jimmie Foxx card to sell wouldn't you at least put his name in the auction title along with HOF or something like that?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Perhaps to keep them out of view from the experts?

I'll be glad when Mike solves this riddle.

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Posted By: Michael Campbell

See my earlier posting. As earlier stated, I am not divulging any received info until it can be combined into a solid opinion. But let me put it this way, if the people I have asked, can't determine authenticity or not, PSA,Global Etc. sure won't. We then would have an unsolved mystery on our hands. And if the determination turns out to be "sort of" "or maybe" or "We think" or "it looks like", thats not good enough for me. I would then consider them to be suspect. Again, it's the detective work I enjoy, not the outcome. Sort of when you are on the nationwide search for that "one" card you want so badly.

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Posted By: dennis

sagard i agree with you on grading company's authenticating these,but this is the type of stuff they probably won't touch.

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Posted By: sagard

Whoever originally "found" these cards had reason to believe they are legitimate I would expected them showing up here for advice on how to prove it. After providing proof of these cards legitimacy to a reputable grading company, that is when serious money could have been made. Especially after after "finding" the bigger stars.

Flipping ultra rare potentially unique cards on Ebay doesn't make sense if you truly believe in them.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

Cards can be 'too rare'. If a card is so rare that no one knows what it is, then it has no market.

Ebay is as good a place as any to sell baseball cards, just look at that Josh Gibson price on there as an example. As far as needing a grading company's blessing to place value on a card, I don't think the companies will grade any newly discovered or uncatalogued cards.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

There are 2 categories: (1) cards newly discovered from already-catalogued sets and (2) newly discovered or uncatalogued sets. The former often requires only a call or email to the grading staff at SGC for them to look out for it and consider it. That was my experience with some uncatalogued Pinkerton scorecards that SGC graded for me. The latter requires more intervention. I had SGC slab a rare Japanese O'Doul card for me at the National. I picked it up from Gary Engel, who wrote the book, literally, on Japanese cards, and they wanted to talk to him about it to verify what it was before slabbing it.

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Posted By: Mike campbell

I am doing this investigation because I am curious. If they should prove to be frauds, so be it. It they prove to be legit, then let the market or the Grading services do what they like. At least I will know. Being a collector, that is all I need.

The previous writer, is correct, a card can be too rare. Oddly enough, this can, and often does cause the market value to be minimal, because either the masses don't know about them, or people don't bother to look for them, because they feel it will be impossible to find one, let alone put a set together that so many choose to pursue. I am not a set builder. My interests center around specific players, teams, and time periods. The eventual value is unimportant to me at this time. I have had conversations today with experts in Kansas, and Ct., and Minnesota. It's interesting to hear them get excited, after I explain to them what it is I am pursuing. I eventually ended up speaking to a gentleman, who I discovered is called the grandfather of modern forensics surrounding paper dating, and photo dating.

I am meeting with a forensics person mid next week.

I recently came to learn of this forum. I am not a dealer. Just a collector. I have been collecting for many years. Mostly high graded material. Just a quite lover of memorablia. One of the "nations" most respected and honest dealers, and I have been friends for 12 or 13 years. Many of my finds have come through him. So, I guess I have come out of the closet. Hopefully I can contribute some small bits of info to others who are in need.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For unique/unusual/esoteric items, it's not difficult to determine if it's vintage or not, but it can be difficult to determine what it is. I think for grading companies, they are often concerned with the latter rather than the former when they search for outside opinion. This is as they are the ones putting a label above the card that will be scrutinized by many.

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

Met with the third paper conservator/forensics person today. She is sending me her findings in writing. Paper dating, printing methods, etc. etc. I told her it did not matter to me one way or the other what her findings were. It has been interesting though, looking at this thing through all these high powered machines. It will be 6 weeks or so before I will forward on my findings to Bob Lemke. He then can make the decision as to what the findings may be.

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Posted By: ramram

Hey Mike -

Did you ever get comfortable with an answer one way or another?

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

Probably manufactured in the late 50's or 1960. Sometime in this era. Not pre war, but still an interesting set. I am told that the probability of this time line would be about 75% to 80%. I guess we will never know for certain, but this appears to be the most likely. This passed on to me by three different forensic experts. One of which gave me an opinion in writing, the other two from the forensics dept. at the state historical society were leary of putting it in writing, as they did not want the historical society to be liable, if their conclusions were inaccurate.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Shocking.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The sarcasm from the post above is dripping down on to me!!

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

Thanks Hall. I appreciate the support. It was fun. I got to meet some folks who deal in an area of research, that I had never dealt with before. Seeing how the labs work, and all the high tech gear, was interesting. the conclusion was not necessarily a surprise. I am not shocked. But it was interesting none the less. I had originally planned on taking it a bit further, but I had received two negative e mails from several forum members, I decided why spend any more time and money, when their opinionss had already been made. And nothing was going to change their minds. Thanks to Ryan for the intelligent and well thought out retort. It added a lot to the thread. Thanks again Ryan. I appreciate it.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Any time, Mike. You might want to add that I was not one of those who sent you a negative e-mail, nor have I ever e-mailed you at all. I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but the above post almost seems to imply that I had.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Don't let it get to you, Mike...

I think you could donate your entire net worth to a truckload of starving orphans and your kidney to a dying stranger and you would get at least two e-mails from board members attacking you for something.

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

It wasn't you Ryan. I know who it was. Everyone on the forum knows them. I have collected cards and memorablia my whole life, and pre war, for the last 15. I was always under the impression that this hobby was supposed to be fun. And it is. It amazes me why anyone would take the time, or go through the effort of attacking someone for just being interested in dating a baseball card. One individual told me to stop wasting my time. Another actually questioned my knowledge of the hobby. Funny, since that individual and I have never met. Lastly, a person questioned my intelligence. I know this a tiny minority of folks in the hobby. Otherwise, I wouldn't be involved in it. I love pre war items, and will always be a collector. There is something about an old card, that I can't explain. I love 'em. who knows why. I'm hooked.

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Posted By: leon

I think it was you and I that emailed long ago and I might have prodded you to come to our happy forum. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I don't think Ryan was taking a personal stab at you. I know him (hi Ryan) personally and I think all he meant was something like "I told you so, the whole time". I appreciate your in depth research and something tells me it was a lot of fun doing it. It certainly sounds like it was. As far as getting private emails about negativity on your dating of cards.....I have dated a lot worse Thanks again for the follow up ......regards

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

The Ebay auction says the card was from the 50's. Mike's experts say 50's or 1960. Ryan says it's not a legitimate issue at all, and Hal and Leon believe Ryan is now trying to say I told you so. What is the conclusion here--that they are illegitimate cards from the 50's or 60's?

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

The forensic experts I visited with, told me that they were more than likely manufactured anywhere from 1957 to 1960. All three agreed that the printing on the back, was absolutley "not" stamped, but rather was printed during the manufacturing process. This they all agreed on. A fourth paper expert agreed completely. Not all these experts were at the same location. I have some documentation from one of the four. Whether all this means they are legit or not, I guess depends on how one defines legit. One person mentioned to me that, if these were "fake", what ever that means, "someone sure went to a lot of trouble to make them up". And costly as well.

To clarify a bit, I was told the late 50's, up to about 1960. Not into the 60's, but rather up to 1960. Not beyond 1960.

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Posted By: fkw

Whats the difference between 1957 and 1961 as far as paper and printing styles? I cant see how someone can narrow it down to a 3 year gap that these were mostlikely made. I would like to see more on the history........ who 1st brought them back from Cuba?? How many examples were in the original "find"?? And Where is the Album these came from? 90+% of all Cuban cards are first discovered (found) pasted into albums. Some of these had album residue on the back. Im sure no one who thought these had any value would throw away the album these were taken out of. My gut feeling is they are very recent and home made. None of the Cuban experts have ever seen even a single example. Im sure at least a single example would have surfaced in the hobby sometime in the last 50 years.


Frank

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Posted By: James Feagin

Mike,

I'm in total agreement with what you said in your preceding post. Why anyone would want to waste a few moments of their lives bashing you on your opinion or hobby cred. is beyond me. You are better than me, because I would have posted their negative e-mails for all to see. Every segment of baseball card collecting, or any hobby for that matter, have these types. Whether your Polar cards are legit or not, I think it satisfied a curiousity, and I trust you are happy with the answer. This is not meant to be an all-consuming money-grubbing obsession, it is a hobby, and I commend Mike for the way he has handled this thread.

James (The vintage collector who dares to collect gasp modern)

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Has anyone considered the possibility that these were indeed printed on authentic, old stock paper? I'm saying, and have thought from the beginning, that these were made recently, not 1957 or 1960, but recently, ON OLD PAPER.

Is someone now saying that because Mike's experts date the paper to be from 1957 to 1960 that these are legit cards? I don't think that's was Mike is saying. He's just reporting to us the findings of his research.

Since my September post I have held one of these cards in my hands and agree that the text on the back was printed, not stamped on. I do still believe that this is not a real issue and was not produced by Polar.

I also find it interesting, Mike, that in all your research you never noticed anything similar about every one of the photographs used. Is there anything you found out in your research about the images, themselves? How about this: Every one of the photos used is a George Burke photo. All of them.

Someone on this board must collect George Burke photos and be an expert in all things George Burke. If not, with all the lawyers on this board it would be easy enough for someone to find out who has the rights to the photos and contact them to see if they ever gave permission to Polar to use their images on baseball cards. Certainly a company as large as Polar (which still exists, by the way) would not have stolen the images and produced cards without legal consent.

Anyone looking to convince themselves that these are legit cards, just contact the Burke estate and Polar Brewery and show us the documentation you find. I'll be shocked and amazed, but I'm perfectly willing to eat crow and publicly declare I was wrong if I was wrong.

-Ryan

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

I'm not following. If the paper is dated by folks/experts that have no interest in baseball cards as late 50's , then either the cards are from the late 50's or an evil doer wants us to think that they are from the late 50's. Why would not this 'evil doer' find paper that dates to the 30's and print it on that.

The fact that all the photos can be traced to the same photographer indicates to me that the series of cards is of innocent origin. I don't own any of these cards and have no interest other than that I stand by what I originally thought based on Mike's findings. They are a neat obscure, 50's set of baseball cards.

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Posted By: leon

I too am not that interested in the cards themselves but the debate is intriguing. I think you make a good point, Ryan. Unless someone saw these being printed in the years of '57'ish-'60 then how can any forensic expert or any "person" for that matter say impertively that they were actually made in those years. There is not doubt there is old paper around today and there is no doubt there are machines to produce cards today, that date from the '50's. Why couldn't old paper be printed on today? I still like all of the work Mike has done (though I think it was another Mike I emailed with to come onto the board a while back) and he should still be very satisified knowing the facts he found out. It sounds like the journey was, a lot, or most of the fun....best regards

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

Once again, I have nothing at stake here. As I stated earlier, I was told there was a 75% to 80% chance that combined elements of the printing style, the paper, and the photograhic process, all together "pointed" towards the late 50's. Nothing is certain, heck there are still debates going on today, about the origination dates of some late 19th century and early 20th century cards. So, I guess we may never know. But the goal was fun none the less. It's only a baseball card. can't we just all get along? Now, if only PSA would get my cards back to me that they have had for a few weeks..... Now that is more urgent.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Mike:

I'm sure you can understand why the "delicate balance" of this hobby could be totally skewed by these Polar cards (and any other such "finds")...

as there are certain legendary Hall of Famers (Cool Papa Bell and Buck Leonard) who currently don't have ANY baseball cards.

The IMPORTANCE of your Polar cards is NOT about the Monte Irvin card from 1959 that was on EBay...

it is about the POSSIBILITY of a Buck Leonard card or a Cool Papa Bell card showing up for the first time ever.



This is why we are so suspicious about the Polar cards... because the ones that were sold on EBay are the PERFECT "set up" for this type of scam.

They included one former HOF (Foxx), one current player (Irvin), and then a bunch of VERY OLD players from the Carribean.

In other words, if Bell and Leonard show up now... they will fit in perfectly with the apparent "make up" of the set.



If ZERO cards from this set ever appear again... then nobody will give much thought to this and will probably not bother to dispute the 1959 origin of the set.

BUT...

it is the entire CREDIBILITY and INEGRITY of the hobby that is at stake if a Cool Papa Bell Polar card suddenly emerges...

and none of us could just sit by and let that happen without a fight.

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Posted By: mike campbell

I fully understand. I couldn't agree more. You'll get no arguement out of me. All I did was make an attempt at dating them. I actually did come across more people who can date glue, (on the backs) and other such oddities. But then again, that would also just meet with more areas with which we could all dispute. I spent my own time and money. I am not complaining, as it was something I chose to do. No different than if I came across some odd ball Ruth in an antique store. I am fully aware of the ramifications of this issue. I hesitate to even say this because I feel it shouldn't be necessary, but if anyone doubts my efforts or honesty, one of the nations most respected and long time dealers (20 years, or more, whom we all know) and I have been long time friends. Obviously I will not reveal his name. But I digress. I guess we can all draw our own conclusions.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Just because the photos are all Burke photos does not mean that they were legitimately licensed Burke photos.

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Posted By: Michael

Let's wait for an important notice about the POLAR CARDS

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Posted By: Mike Campbell

Regardless of the outcome, it has been interesting. If they do turn out to be "fakes" the story would then become, Who would go to all this trouble, and what was the process that this individual went through? That would be more interesting than the cards themselves. It is amazing what lengths people go through to make a buck. I can't wait to hear the news. I don't care either way.

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Posted By: Chad

Mike, I appreciate all the work you've done on these cards. I would love to find out that they're real. If they're originating from Cuba, then that probably does a lot to explain why someone would go to a lot of trouble, tho. I've travelled there and I can tell you, a few dollars goes a long way. Couple that with the impossibility of ever prosecuting or seeking redress because of the political difficulties and you can start to see the motivation of a potential forger. Which isn't to say that they are forgeries, only that the money involved isn't insignificant to the forger and there's no risk of jail time or a civil suit. In my dreams, they're real and I pick up a Buck Leonard and Cool Papa Bell for a 20 dollar BIN.

--Chad