1887 Kalamazoo Bats

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Posted By: Geoff Litwack

Hello all,

Despite the fact that I can't afford to collect them, I'm intrigued by Kalamazoo Bats. Just how rare are they? How were the cabinets distributed? Who's collecting them? How often do new player or poses emerge?

Also, just today I started putting together a page for them on my website, with the goal of having pictures of every card available. So to that end, if you have a scan of a card you'd like to share, please post and I'll add it to the website ASAP!

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Posted By: Richard

This isn't my site, so I can't give you permission to use the images, but you may want to contact Wayne Delia about the Kalamazoo Bats cards on his site (http://www.deliafamily.net/BBCI/bbci.html).

Richard.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The Kalamazoo cabinets with jet black mounts and gold writing on the mount are the rarest and sell in the $20,000+ range each. Only a few total exist. It is theorized that they are 'proofs', and probably were not issued to the public. You'll see one show up in major auction perhaps once every other year.

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Posted By: Geoff Litwack

Richard - thanks for that link. I have an email out asking if I can use those images - what an amazing site he has.

David - interesting info. $20,000/each must drive the type collectors crazy. Is the other type significantly less expensive, or no? I almost hate to talk about money after the recent furor in the other thread, but it's not like either are within my budget anyway.

I don't want to 'blow up the spot,' as the kids say, so I won't link to the auction, but any guesses what the P/F KBat on eBay is going to end at?

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Posted By: Marc S.

$1,774 is the final tally. Much higher than I would have expected - but isn't that what we all seem to say anymore?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6204243690

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

I have been a collector of super rare type cards for more than 25 years.

During the course of my collecting I have only seen six Kalamazoo Bat
Team Cabinets in private collections (and two in the collection in the
New York Public Library)

The late Sir Edward Wharton Tigar, author of the five part World Tobacco
Index owned three cards which he obtained from Burdick back in the 40's.

Sir Edward, who passed away about a decade ago, donated his collection
to the British Museum.

He and I traded cards back in the mid-70's. He owned 400 Ramlys and
2000 Old judges.

Two of his three cards eventually landed up with Lew Lipset who sold
at least one in one of his auctions.

I know of three others in private collections.

And I own the sixth- a beautiful card of Philadelphia with Harry Wright
pictured "right in the middle."

$20,000 sounds like the price of for PSA 9 53 Mays or PSA 8 Bowman 51 Mantle
so a real bargin for a card of which only two exist.

Should anyone wish a scan , please write to me.

Which grading service should get the card?

Best,


Bruce Dorskind

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Posted By: Geoff Litwack

Bruce: Wow. Could I add what you just wrote to my page? It seems like a pretty definitive description of the rarity of the cabinets. Also, I'd love to see a scan of your card - my name has a link to my email. Let me know if it would be okay to put it on the web, too.

Best,
Geoff

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Posted By: davidcycleback

In a PSA holder, it would sell for lots. Many people don't understand the rarity of the black mounts. One of those situations where something's so rare that people don't know it's rare.

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Posted By: rodney king

I hope it wasn't for card collecting, or I'll have to emigrate to England and see if I can get in on that action, because I can't get anyone except young women to call me sir. Yhey knight Jews nowadays, don't they?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

He was a decorated spy during WWII and a diamond mining executive.

A guy I know (and an American, Adam) was recently knighted in Holland. Except they don't use 'Sir' or other prefix there. So he's still just 'Bob.'

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Posted By: Anonymous

my few commons are amongst the easiest, but you are welcome to use the images if you so choose.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Nice card Dave. 60 seems a little harsh unless there is something wrong with the back we can't see.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I love the card(s)..I like the way they look/present in the SGC holders.

in this case...the slab may have made this card less valuable.



edited to add: nothing wrong with the back other than being blank v. advertising

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Posted By: Rhys

In about 1999 on ebay about 4 K-Bats surfaced out of nowhere, all of which were black mounts. Other than that I have seen about 3 others on ebay in 6 years and about 3-4 in auction houses. That makes 10-11 I have seen in the last 6 years. I have also seen a few trimmed ones which makes the total that I have seen to about 13 in the last 6 years, these were not duplicates. This is more than Bruce has seen and perhaps some of these were duplications (like Lipsets). Just my 2 cents worth on the population report and I have not seen them all so there are many more than 13 if you include private collections, the museum he talked about etc. They are certainly rare but there are more of these out there than other items from the same vintage.

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Posted By: R. Cook

Think Bruce was talking about team cabinets, not the regular size team cards.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

R.Cook-So was Rhys.

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

I believe that the 4 large black borders that were on E Bay in 1999
were individual players and not cabinets.

To my knowledge there are only 6 cabinet cards known

Boston
Pittsburgh
Atlhletics (3)
Philadelphia

I know where each of these cards is held

including two in the NY Public Library.

Would be intersested to know if anyone is aware of any of any
others. Happy to share (privately) a scan of mine.

Bruce

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Posted By: Rhys

Bruce, with all due respect, I am not an idiot. I am pretty sure I know the difference between regular cards and the team cards in the K-Bats set. The ones I saw were the team cards and they were real.

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Posted By: Craig Lipman

Rhys you are not an idiot (although Bruce may want to check your diploma and w-2 to prove it). Black mount K-bat cabinets are rare but three have sold at auction in the past 8 months all for far less than the previously described worth of 20k.

A Philadelphia described as Ex sold for 9925
An Athletics graded vg sold for 9k
A Boston graded ex sold for 14.4k

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

Rhys:

No one, particuarly not ,I accused you of being an idiot.

It was also not I who placed a value of $20K on the cards.
In fact it was David from Cycleback.

Furthermore, none of three cards mentioned in Craig's
sarcastic comments were graded in any holder.

Also, at least one of the cards in the auctions mentioned
traces its roots back to Wharton Tigar and Lew Lipset
since I won the card and have a photo of the cards
originally owned by Sir Wharton Tigar.

It was he (Wharton Tigar) working with Charles Bray
an infamous collector, whose research back in 1970,
indicated that Kalamazoo Bat Team Cabinets were
very very limited in production and less than a half
dozen specifmens were known then extanct.

Before one draws conclusions about total population size,
I would hope that one would take the time to carefully
resaerch all of the known cards and ensure that items
appearing in a Mile High or Mastro Auction were new discoveries
and not cards that could be traced back 30 years.

I also trust you will ignore Craig's comments about W-2 or
University degrees. I will not dignify it in any way.

Thank you for your consideration.

Bruce

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Posted By: Craig Lipman

I'm curious Bruce what grading company do you think is slabbing oversized K-Bat cabinets?
Who said anything about a holder?

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Posted By: barrysloate

The NY Public library has about 10 examples of the Philadelphia Nationals with Harry Wright. I saw them many years ago and remember them as cabinet size, but I don't recall the black mounts. Corey Shanus remembers them as being nearly imperial cabinet size. It would be worth someone going there to check them out (or perhaps they are now all online). There is no explanation as to why they had multiples of the same exact image.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

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Posted By: Geoff Litwack

Wanted to let everyone know that the webpage has been caught up to date with image submissions. Thanks to everyone who sent and posted their scans - because of you, there are 24 out of 60 N690s, four of six N693s and several cabinets, both "the standard" type and black and gold. If anyone is sitting on scans of missing players, give 'em up.

Best,
Geoff

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Javiera ... MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Bruce is correct in that Sir Edward's collection of cards was donated to the British Museum. Imagine my surprise in 2000 when I visited the museum and stumbled across a T206 Wagner in a display of tobacco cards! I must say I was a bit surprised to find one there...

Jeff