1914 CrackerJack Cobb???????

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Posted By: Tony

Saw this on Ebay. What'cha think. Bottom does look suspect? Seller also has listed another T206 Cobb that he states was cracked out of an SGC holder just as the Cobb CrackerJack was, only to find evidence of trimming and returned by PSA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5213679980&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

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Posted By: Glenn

If the story is true, which it very well may be, and if I were the seller, I'd send it back to SGC. Not sure what that tells us, but it seems odd to sell it raw for the amount of money involved. Maybe it was graded in the early days of SGC.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The bottom is wavy and probably why PSA refused to grade it. But the point is well taken: why not just send it back to SGC? And why break a card out of a SGC holder to send to PSA (a vintage card that is)? Why not just send it for cross-over? Seems like too expensive of a card to mess with.

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Posted By: jay behrens

he stated he thought it would grade higher. If you are lookiong to get a grade bump, then sending it the slab won't help your case. The card looks nice and I don't see the waviness on the bottom. The card is curved, that me what you are seeing. The biggest problem I have is his claim that card came out of a SGC50 case. That card is way too nice for a 50 and I can't spot any defects, even on my huge screen.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

that doesn't look much nicer then a 50 if it were old school SGC graded. I have about 8 or so t206's that look like true 7's that are in 70 holders.

oh well ,it is a matter of luck on the right day.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Card looks short to me, too.

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Posted By: Mike P.

I don't know how he thought that T206 cobb he has listed was better than a 30 with that paper loss on the right side.

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Posted By: JimB

While I think the seller is probably being honest, I think the card looks short t/b. My guess from the scan is that it probably is trimmed as both PSA and SGC (He resubmitted it to SGC and they said the same thing) have opined. On a good day, if the card were not trimmed it could come back as ex, but I don't think vg/ex is out of line, particularly considering the top right corner.
JimB

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Posted By: jay behrens

Here's another consideration. Did he crack out and trim it himself in hopes of sliding it past the slabbers?

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I sent him an e-mail asking if he would guareentee that the card would grade... He just replied "Read my description, and then read it again until you understand" Yea Right! JC

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Posted By: David H

I suspect its most likely trimmed...

this one he also has same story on is trimmed on top left..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5213679982&rd=1

and this one, the story is suspect to me...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5213679979&rd=1

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Posted By: David H

this one also looks trimmed at the top left to me...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86840&item=5213679971&rd=1

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's it amazing how many trimmed cards this guy has pulled from SGC slabs? Almost makes you wonder if you is trying to do a slam job on SGC. He claims to have thrown out the slabs and flips, but the few SGC cards I've cracked out, I've kept the slabs and insert becuase they are perfect for shipping. The guy'd story is too fishy.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: leon

The seller doesn't feel he's a part of our community, and would like to post the following message: (cut and pasted)

<<wow. i appreciate your informing me. amazing these people have rushed to judgment. thought i was doing the right thing by disclosing what happened. first the grading company and now i am being made to look like i am doing something wrong. well not much i can do about this either. what a hobby. i am not part of that community. any chance you would be kind enough to post this email there? if not i understand your not wanting to be involved. take care!! bud.>>>

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Posted By: WP

Were those cards in Lew Lipsets last auction???

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

He also keeps saying that we should learn from his error -- yet he made the same error over and over and over and over...

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Ahhhhh The power of suggestion... I think I will take his advice and drink a "Bud" instead of participating in his scams.. JC

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Posted By: MW

I wonder if the seller is confusing the old SBC holder (which was from a different company altogether) with the modern SGC holder. Also, I wonder if the seller can supply an image of the card while it was still encapsulated or at least provide evidence of the flip. If he did, I think it would help to clear up many doubts/questions.

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Posted By: James

This seller is too sophisticated and deals in top shelf material to confuse SBC with SGC...Husband of Tammy is right, this card was probably never in SGC holder..SGC grades extremely conservative, unlikely 2 cards would both be trimmed...1914 Cobb , this particular one may have been in a major auction from AZ recently as raw card that was short..wasn't Bud Ackerman a movie character?

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Posted By: Dave H

my comments are not personal against that seller. simply stated i still feel those cards where cut with hedge trimmers.

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Posted By: cn

I e-mailed him via e-bay about his Cobb and I questioned him on whether or not he had the SCG#. He told me that he did not and then in a manner which I felt uncalled for told me not to bid on his Cobb. The price was already over $300 so I guess he didn't care anymore. Terrible Salesmanship!

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Posted By: Mike P.

All he has to do is go on SGCs website and he can log in and get his submission numbers, so to say he doesn't have them is a bunch of bull!

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Posted By: MW

SGC has only ever graded one VG-EX 1914 CJ Ty Cobb. According to the seller's story, it would have to be the one that he owned. There are only a limited number of VG-EX or better 1914 CJ Cobbs that have been encapsulated by SGC (4 to be exact). Anyone out there have any evidence of an SGC 50 Cobb?

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Posted By: oldmaid

i am the seller of the now infamous cracker jack card. one of the members
of this internet chatroom made me aware of this topic. i do not
participate in these kinds of exchanges so please hang in there with me as
i try to set the record straight.

i thought i was doing the proper thing by telling perspective buyers the
card is short and came back trimmed. i do not deal with sgc cards and when
i encounter any i always break them out. in fact often i break psa and
other graded cards out of the cases if i think they look nicer and try to
submit for the higher grade. i know sgc has a great rep in the hobby so i
am not intending to knock them. i do prefer psa though.

this card was bought in an sgc case. someone had suggested it might be an
sbc card and i have never heard of them. all i can tell you without having
the card tag is that i thought it was sgc (black case with a 2 digit grade)
and am quite certain in was graded a 50. it is very possible that it said
40 though. honestly i did not think that was relevant in my ebay ad. the
most important issue was the buyer knowing he is getting a card that would
not grade for me.

you have portrayed me somewhat as a villain and a couple of you even
mentioned email exchanges with me but what you stated was out of context to
what you wrote to me and a bit inaccurate as what i wrote back to you. i
am not looking to argue and i may not even be able to change your minds. i
at least wanted to have my time to explain. thanks.

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Posted By: MW

oldmaid,

Did you purchase the card in an already graded state or did you personally submit the card for grading?

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Posted By: Dave H

Your entire message is full of if's and maybe's.

If i wanted to get more for my trimmed cards, maybe i'd make up a good story like that too.

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Posted By: James

I think it is incredible that this seller that deals mainly in vintage and high priced material(ex T202 PSA 7 $3228 !) would not recall if card was in a SGC 50 or maybe now an SGC 40? An expensive card like this, I would remember. This seller is a lot more knowledgable about their dealings than they lead us to believe, probably used this "story" to lure someone in thinking they could get card graded to bid up price. This vendor seems to be gifted in story telling, not in grammar.

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Posted By: Kieran

Personally, I would stay away from this card no matter what. I do not know the seller but I have learned to many times not to trust anyone. The card could be or could not be trimmed..he could be honest or might be lieing. Either way I have stayed far away from this card and feel sorry for poor sucker who wins it.

"I have had balls thrown at me my whole life. When I turned 30 I started to really hate balls - I didnt like the smell, feel or taste!"

Yogi Berra - 1975

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Posted By: leon

From here on out in this thread I am going to require first and last names on the posts....or if you are well known then that is ok....or if your name is on the links page, by your NET54 handle, then that's ok too...otherwise all future posts in this thread, that are anonymous (meaning no first and last name unless known) will be deleted...thanks for your understanding....moderator dude

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Posted By: Judge Dred

The auction is over, here's the information.

Winning bid: US $1,725.00

Ended: Jul-05-05 17:19:00 PDT
Start time: Jun-30-05 17:19:00 PDT
History: 25 bids (US $0.01 starting bid)
Winning bidder: piecesofthegame (155)

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

This seller has already admitted he's not part of our community, and thus not privvy to all the selling, slabbing, cross-over rules that we have imposed on the hobby. Our modus operandi seems to be to rip such people to shreds.

If you weren't aware of how slabbing companies handled cross-overs, and you normally slabbed through PSA and then received some SGC cards, what would you do? You'd crack them and send the raw cards to PSA. The SGC tags would be worthless to you, so you might scan in the holder, and you might not.

I don't think that participating regularly on this board gives people an automatic elite hobby status that entitles them to a snob carte blanche, especially people who probably just held their first CJ within the last year.

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Posted By: leon

I have to agree with you on this one. Where is the old "innocent till proven guilty?" That is a beautiful card too......and btw, how many times have I heard about this or that card not grading and then miraculously grading...and vice versa.....Grading is still good (actually authentication is good and grading is so so, but that's another topic) but shouldn't be the end all...imo...I don't think the seller could win on this one..

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think once a seller discloses that a card is trimmed...

then all bets are off and it is "buyer beware" from that point forward.

Any buyer who thinks they might be getting a steal is doomed.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The things that are unsettling about this are the fact that he cracked so many cards from SG holder that came back trimmed from PSA and that he claimed the Cobb was a 50 and after MW did a quick check of the pop report to show there was only 1, his story changed to it might have been a 40. It's not every day that you handle a 14 CJ Cobb, let a lone a really nice example. If you are cracking it out to try and get a better grade, I find it highly unlikley that he doesn't know what the original grade was. If you are looking for a bump in grade, you can sure hell beat he knows what the grade was so that he knows if it got the same, better ot lower grade.

Yes, this board can be harsh, but when there are so many unsettling signs like this, you expect the seller to ripped for it, even if he has made honest mistakes. Vigalance is what keeps the scammers at bay, not cutting everyone slack.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Patrick Mchugh

I have bought a few cards from Bud and he is legit. He had the honesty to state the card was not gradable. Most ebay sellers just throw it out there. This card would have sold for 2 or more times the price had he not been so honest. I wish more sellers on ebay and at card shows would be so up front. Ill bet most people have trimmed or altered cards in there collection and dont even know it.

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Posted By: Richard Wong

I agree with Leon's and Patrick's comments about the seller. He disclosed a lot of information on his posts, and he took the hit for being honest.

I fear for anyone out there who does not live and breathe this stuff as much as some of the people on this board.

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Posted By: Wesley

Many ebay dealers would have just thrown the card up there without saying a word. This guy disclosed that the cards have been rejected from PSA as trimmed. I think that is fair warning and that is all that can be expected from a seller.

So what is the problem everyone is having with this seller? I would think that the reasonable buyer would just assume that the card is not gradeable. Anybody buying the card should not expect to triple their money by having the card grade SGC 50 after that kind of fair warning.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't know what kind of monetary scam it is when the seller says the the card was rejected as trimmed by a major grader. That's rarely used as a promotional tool to drum up extra bids.

Even if there is some bidder who bids on this card hoping to gain big bucks from some convoluded PSA/SGC resubmission game, that's his issue ... As I say, a collector is never forced to bid on anything. If a collector bids on something that clearly problematic or iffy, that was his choice.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

to a bunch of cards successfully holdered by PSA - isn't it possible that these are some of the cards you think don't exist? Would you expect him to say "graded lower by SGC originally"?

In response to a previous post, YES, I fully expect this board to trash any ebayer who is the least bit suspect - no one escapes, including the guilty. If this board were running things, OJ's grave would have a healthy crop of ivy growing on it, and Michael Jackson would have been yanked out of the courtroom and drawn and quartered...not that those are bad things.

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Posted By: leon

Please email me at lluckey@amherst1.com .. it's my work addy.....I need for you to put your first and last name on these posts....thanks

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Posted By: Dave Hobson

I can read. What is your last name Leon?

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Posted By: Dave Hobson

I provided a link in my last message above to all his cards he offered for sale at the same time. Varying years, all by PSA, none are CJ or T206, except the so called few. One would think the trimmed cards would be the exception rather than the rule. Its logical to assume there would be more CJ and T206 that were successfully returned as gradable by PSA. Yet none were offered for sale. The sample of cards is large enough so that its probable that if some of those he offered were also previously broken out, some non CJ or T206 cards also would have been trimmed.

As luck we have it, it appears he was unlucky enough to only break out trimmed cards from CJ and T206 and two just happened to be Cobbs. Poor guy.

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Posted By: Josh K.

For what its worth, I recently bought a PSA graded T222 Alexander from this seller without any problems.

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Posted By: leon

All I wanted you to do was put your first and last name. Really nothing personal here. As my post says "unless you are well known". I feel like I am well known but my last name is "Luckey"......as in the lluckey part of my email address I put in the request to you...which you still haven't done but I won't get my panties in a wad about that as you have put your name on your post....best regards

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Leon Who? You mean Luckey isn't just part of a screen ID like Luckey Leon or Leon's Luckey?

An epiphany - poof, now I understand the meaning of life...

Leon's first name is Leon and not Moderator and his last name isn't Dude, it's Luckey... as in "It's my lucky day!!!" (sorry for misspelling Luckey there, Leon).

Disclaimer - I apologize in advance to those that did not appreciate this post or were otherwise offended by this post....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Many of the posts here assume PSA got it right--I don't make that assumption. Assuming the seller's story is true, isn't it possible that PSA misdiagnosed the condition of these cards?

I see from the prior posts that there was only 1 SGC 50 Cobb per the pop report and the story then changed to it maybe being a 40 not a 50. The listing clearly states it was a 50. That ringing sound you hear is a warning chime. Anyone here really believe that the seller can't remember whether it was a vg or vg-ex card, when the difference is hundreds or thousands of dollars? I don't know the seller but it doesn't ring true with me.

Yes, we do go after people for sloppy listings as well as overtly fraudulent ones. I happen to think a heightened level of care in listing as well as scrutiny in analyzing is appropriate when dealing with large ticket items. If sellers are honest and up front about things, we publish that too. If they are combative, evasive and mealy-mouthed in response to questions, it gives you a pretty good idea of what they are all about. Again, I'd rather know if someone offering high profile cards for sale is a weasel than not know.

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Posted By: Anonymous

below is an email from my boss. this might clear things up for a few of you so that you can find someone else to pick on. i am sure there are other bad guys out there who are more deserving of your punishment where the evidence is right out there and you can do more than speculate about. to those of you who are/were able to see there was no intended malice, i thank you for having faith in me--someone you do not know.

thanks,

john (oldmaid)

John--

What a mess!!! I gave you 4 ungraded Cobbs. 3 of them were T206 Bat Off's or Bat On's (can't recall which pose off hand), the 4th card was the 14 Cracker Jack. I recall placing the post it on the 14 that stated trimmed and rejected by PSA twice. Likewise, the 3 T206's were all rejected by PSA and all came out of SGC holders; specifically a 20, 30 and 40 holder and had post its affixed to each stating such. Since it appears the scans are already down I cannot identify which T206 Cobb you listed. The 14 NEVER came out of an SGC holder. Not sure who screwed up there but I should have reviewed the auction's prior to listing. Too late.

If you want to get into it with the folks from the website, feel free. You can explain to them you work for someone else and there is someone else calling all of the shots. I personally want nothing to do with it and frankly, I am sort of confused why it is even an issue with these guys as you stated the card was short. I would like my 10 minutes back that I spent reading about this. Each of us has to decide on our own what battles are worth fighting over.

Let's put this one to bed please.

Thanks

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Posted By: MW

Oldmaid/John,

Thank you for the clarification. So it wasn't the 1914 CJ Cobb that came out of an SGC holder but three T206 Cobbs instead. And you are listing the cards for the owner and do not have direct knowledge of their origin. Am I reading that correctly?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm lost. So, he's pissed because there was an uproar about his auctions--and now he admits that they were misleading?

I do love the contrived and haughty umbrage, though.

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Posted By: Julie

as someone said to me--not long enough ago.