Leap Of Faith and the Herpolsheimer Cards

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Isn't buying one of these cards taking the same "leap of faith" as buying a game used bat?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Personally, I wouldn't use the term "leap of faith" for bats or cards or fine art. I would say that educated and intelligent collectors make a judgment as to the identity and authenticity. The judgment never has to be an "all or nothing," but should an a sound experesion of one's objective opinion about identy.

Judgment is done one item at a time. Sometimes a collector will be certain something if fake ("The black light proves that the paper is modern, It's impossible for this poster to be from 1909"). Sometimes a collector will be certain something is genuine ("I know it's the Reggie Jackson autograph is real, because I got it from him in person"). Sometimes the opinion won't be definite ("My guess is that it's authentic, but I'm not certain" or "I have no clue. I know nothing about German expressionist paintings.")

"I have no clue what this thing is," is an example of sound judgment about authenticity if you have no clue what the thing is. Making up an answer when you don't know, is an example of a poor judgment ... One of my rules for beginners leaning how to "authenticate" is that it's always better to say "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" than to give a wrong answer ... An expert in judging authenticity knows the limits of his knowledge and is willing to say, "I have no idea." It's a hack who thinks and says he has all the answers.

For the collector, this judgment is usually done in a context. Usually the context is whether or not to buy and how much to pay. If there is a leap of faith involved in collecting, it is not in making the sound judgement, but in purchasing an expensive piece of memorabilia where your judgment about identity is not 100 percent certain.

Making a judgment about authenticity or identiy is one question. Whether or not to buy and how much to pay based on your authenticity jugment is a different question. Two experienced collectors can come to the same judgment about authenticity, but to a different conclusion about whether or not to buy.

Anyone who buys regularly on eBay or even from reputable auction houses like MastroNet is taking at least some degree of chance. This is because you won't be able to see in person and make your final opinion about authenticity, grade, etc until after you have paid for it.

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Posted By: leon

Cards that you know are real aren't a leap of faith and don't require one. I have about 10 of them and they are all real. SGC has graded my Stengel but I didn't need them to tell me they were good....I did want a second opinion on the back being vintage though. They agreed. Legitimate cards are much easier to authenticate than other sports items. So far I have never seen fake gloss that looks real in person.... regards

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Leon, I know I'm comparing apples and oranges, but what goes into "authenticating" a previously unknown card?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

knowing the characteristics of known real cards and the various issues will allow one to "authenticate" unknown ones as well. not neccessarliy who issued it or exactly where & when, but that it is a period issue and has the smell, feel, texture, etc that it should have, those can not be faked.

scott

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Posted By: leon

Not to sound egotistical but I have handled a few thousand of these types of cards....same size, same time frame. I feel I can authenticate them at this point. Gloss and feel....can't be duplicated
take care
leon

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

What does SGC do to authenticate a previously unknown card like this. Are there tests that can be done? Ultraviolet light, et cetera? Can the ink used in the 1920's be found today? The cardboard?

I'm not questioning your expertise Leon because I truly believe you can handle these cards and tell if they are real or not, I was just wondering if there is anything scientific about autheniticating previously unknown cards.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Below are two online guides that illustrate how prints of all types are examined, identified and authenticated. There are scientific, though practical, methods to dating printing and cardstock, and determining if a newly discovered card is vintage or a moden fake.

examining prints in general (Rembrandt to Warhol)
http://www.cycleback.com/printsexamination

examining trading cards
http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards


A brief explanation is that different printing was used in, say, 1909 than in 1970, and the printing can be identified and dated with a microscope. So an expert can take a microscope, look at a newly discovered baseball card and say, "This is vintage printing" or "This is a fake, becuase this process wasn't invented until the 1970s." Almost all fakes, including the crapola on eBay, are quickly identified as fakes because they were used with a printing process that didn't exist way back when. And almost all legit early 1900s cards can be verified as vintage because the printing used went out of existance many years ago.

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Posted By: dan mckee

The herpolsheimers are real, there is no comparison to supposedly "game used" junk.